EngineMasters Episode 21 408/410 stroker w/ported heads

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RAMM

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Really surprised no one has started a thread here. This seems VERY relevant to FABO especially with all the "Missed Combo" threads roaming around here. Discuss? J.Rob
 
This is typical.

First, they changes the intake and didn't make the carb smaller (like they should have) and they should have changed the cam. It's a system.

On the ported heads, they used an offset rocker. For all the bullcrap work they did, they could have done a W-2 and been better off.

Now I need to watch the rest of it.
 
It is a great episode. Probably one of the best they have done (pretty hard to beat the header bashing episode lol.) It is an eye opener as to the capability of decent flowing Cylinder heads..... However they contradicted themselves a few times.

1-It wasn't free. Add up the Valvetrain cost alone and kapoweee..... And the intake....

2-Dulcich I am sure did the lions share of the work but they mentioned a name who was responsible for intake porting, valve job, and cleaning up the port work (hmmmmmmm.)

So to say they got that number with just labor is total BS. YR must have been reading my mind because as I watched it I said to myself just go get a clean set of W-2's and be done with it. Add up the cost of the heads initially and you could blow right past that combo. That is alot of work to move those pushrod holes when you can buy something already done...

But I enjoy their show so whether I agree or disagree it's good entertainment...

JW
 
very refreshing, keeps the old mind working.
 
Yeah, I'm a budget racer so there's a ton of labor in relocating push rods. Im working with a mag head conversion so we'll see what it yields. However, the 1.6 ratio upgrade is nice. BTW, I thought all those crate motors were mag blocks so I'm surprised he said they have a 1.5 ratio.
 
yellow rose said:
This is typical.

First, they changes the intake and didn't make the carb smaller (like they should have) and they should have changed the cam. It's a system.

On the ported heads, they used an offset rocker. For all the bullcrap work they did, they could have done a W-2 and been better off.

Now I need to watch the rest of it.
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I'm not totally agreeing with you on this. While you are 100% correct on the "system" being off, it would be more so pointless to go to a smaller carb to get the best out of the (mis matched) combo only to go to the bigger carb they ended up with.

The bottom line is it is a approx. 1/2 hour show or general information for the general public. You can nit pick it apart all you want but is still a good show with good information.
 
rumblefish360 said:
I'm not totally agreeing with you on this. While you are 100% correct on the "system" being off, it would be more so pointless to go to a smaller carb to get the best out of the (mis matched) combo only to go to the bigger carb they ended up with.

The bottom line is it is a approx. 1/2 hour show or general information for the general public. You can nit pick it apart all you want but is still a good show with good information.
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It's a real eye opener as to the value of a decent head. It would be interesting to see how many pulls they make before the one they use in the episode. The Dyno operator has probably forgotten more about engines than most people will ever know lol.... And he's a funny guy...

JW
 
SLOPAR72 said:
It's a real eye opener as to the value of a decent head.

JW
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Exactly! That's what the bottom line of the show is. They showed a stock head vs. a ported head. While YR has a valid point, I see it as a time waster on this 1/2-ish internet show only to go back to a better combo. The test was valid enough for what it was. The basic idea is to show what a better head can do for you!

All of this is really not worth the time and cyber space opf argument. Or to nit pick and rip the show apart on what amounts to basically stupidness.
 
yellow rose said:
This is typical.

First, they changes the intake and didn't make the carb smaller (like they should have) and they should have changed the cam. It's a system.

On the ported heads, they used an offset rocker. For all the bullcrap work they did, they could have done a W-2 and been better off.

Now I need to watch the rest of it.
Click to expand...

I assume you're talking the dual plane 408 vs the single plane 410? I think you're right and that's not a fair comparison.

But I do like the swapping the heads on the 410. It's interesting to see how much power you pick up when you change only one thing. Yes you can change other stuff to "optimize" the combo. But a lot of the time guys just put ported heads on their existing setup and go from there. And I think this really does show what happens with heads that are ported on a combo that can actually use them. That short block obviously works a lot better with ported heads. 92 horsepower gain is nothing to sneeze at. Can you do more with different heads? Obviously. But that wasn't the point of this test was it?

What I would have liked to see is the RPM air gap ported with the ported heads. I mean they are shutting it off at 7,000 rpm. The RPM air gap should pull to that. I bet it would go just as hard as the Victor. And have better numbers down low.
 
I get the point of it and I understand the audience it's for.

My big problem is if the combo was correct for that size carb and cam and you change the intake from a dual plane to single plane, you most likely need less carb with the single plane so it is down on mid range power because the carb the engine sees is bigger than it needs to be.

Same with the cam. With a single plane, you can generally use less timing with the single plane to keep the RPM the same.

I know it takes more than a 1/2 hour to do it, but I'd have rather seen all three combos flogged and see how it comes out. So the second test would have had a smaller carb and cam. Then the ported stuff would have used the bigger carb and a cam selected just for it.

In my opinion, they left a bunch on the table with the second test and some on the table with the third, if you think the first combo was sorted out.

I hope that makes my point clear. At least as clear as mud.
 
I'm wondering if anyone noticed what I noticed.

First, they said they used a 1.6 roller rocker. It was one of the changes they made to the original motor. And what happened? They had valvetrain instability, in their words "valve float". They also pre-qualified any lack of rpm by basically blaming the hydraulic lifters.

Then, when they showed the ported heads, what do I see but beehive springs and retainers. I guarantee the ootb rpms didn't have that. A much lighter spring and retainer package, and the ability of the ovate wire to resist harmonics, is going to help rpm, even if the geometry is not right. A closer inspection might show that the 2.08" valves they installed are a smaller stem size to knock off even more weight, and possibly help the numbers a tad. It didn't have any noticeable valve float during the second pull, so thems apples of a different color.

I rate this test B+ S!
 
I was hoping that it was gonna be more like some of his step by step porting that he has shown for Magnum, W2, J, 302. I'm sure these will end up in a magazine article sometime in the near future but seems a little to extensive for us average guys.
 
RAMM said:
Really surprised no one has started a thread here. This seems VERY relevant to FABO especially with all the "Missed Combo" threads roaming around here. Discuss? J.Rob
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I will j ust smile, ...... To do those numbers, doesn't know , the resilience. of an unknown head porter.....
 
B3RE said:
I'm wondering if anyone noticed what I noticed.

First, they said they used a 1.6 roller rocker. It was one of the changes they made to the original motor. And what happened? They had valvetrain instability, in their words "valve float". They also pre-qualified any lack of rpm by basically blaming the hydraulic lifters.

Then, when they showed the ported heads, what do I see but beehive springs and retainers. I guarantee the ootb rpms didn't have that. A much lighter spring and retainer package, and the ability of the ovate wire to resist harmonics, is going to help rpm, even if the geometry is not right. A closer inspection might show that the 2.08" valves they installed are a smaller stem size to knock off even more weight, and possibly help the numbers a tad. It didn't have any noticeable valve float during the second pull, so thems apples of a different color.

I rate this test B+ S!
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I did notice that, and also I didn't see how they corrected the geometry after changing rockers. I'd bet a bunch the geometry was off.
 
yellow rose said:
I did notice that, and also I didn't see how they corrected the geometry after changing rockers. I'd bet a bunch the geometry was off.
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An absolutely honest pair, of comments" that, will get ignored.. I did my Eq head, custom pushrod, 1110 Hughes springs setup, with the Crane Cams stud setup..m( Any one who understood Datsun lash cap knowledge, would get it.....
It's the center sweep, across the valve tip, centered.... Open, your minds, look at different area's, to solve it...mmm
 
What's gets ignored is......who the FRIG can afford an engine like that? Maybe 5% of this forum. Probably less.
 
RustyRatRod said:
What's gets ignored is......who the FRIG can afford an engine like that? Maybe 5% of this forum. Probably less.
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They said they used a blue print short block, which if you don't have any parts sounded reasonably priced, although I'm not a fan of production engine rebuilders.

But...I'm sure if I sat down and added it up, with port work you'd be 10k or so. So yeah, it's a big bite for most.
 
The valve job and port work was tweeked...& don't forget the chamber as well.
Steve comes off like a tool, he basically went in and did his backyard boogie, flow balance was off and weak for the amount of push rod work done...so a real head guy came in and leveled them out and did the heads. They don't give any flow numbers. I still wouldn't use that intake.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
The valve job and port work was tweeked...& don't forget the chamber as well.
Steve comes off like a tool, he basically went in and did his backyard boogie, flow balance was off and weak for the amount of push rod work done...so a real head guy came in and leveled them out and did the heads. They don't give any flow numbers. I still wouldn't use that intake.
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Do you have inside info?
 
I think the intake was a bit much for the cam size and the "Street" like label for the engine.

We can all bit pick at it, but, I'm not going to bother. IMO, it was a good show for what ported heads can do on an engine that for surely needed it.
 
rumblefish360 said:
I think the intake was a bit much for the cam size and the "Street" like label for the engine.

We can all bit pick at it, but, I'm not going to bother. IMO, it was a good show for what ported heads can do on an engine that for surely needed it.
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I agree, but my friends call me the "critic". Any idea how I came to get that name!
 
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