Eric's cam challenge

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ch1ll said:
The 128 rule is a constant and for SBC only. All other engines the constant is different. He doesn’t have a constant for LS. What he used wasn’t right and he knew that. There’s nothing wrong with the math, it just hasn’t been corrected and proven yet. It’s going to take 100’s of cams and pulls to do that.

He just used what he had.
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He is a research engineer and near the end of his tenure. I spent my career as an engineer devising tests and pulling data out of them to learn. The older I get I would rather have the knowledge than the win. I still say he knew the answer and saw 3 cams that were right and used this test as a learning tool and let the next generation win and build their reputations, he just wanted a larger data set. You can actually maybe get that vibe from him if you watch his last few videos on the test. Pure conjecture based on someone who has a similar career (different field though)
 
RustyRatRod said:
Also another thing to consider is this. The factory LS camshafts use a very wide LSA. SOme of them are 120 or greater. Clearly they are "different" animals than the engines before them.
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Know nothing about LS engines. Those 120+ LSAs four valve heads?
 
ch1ll said:
The 128 rule is a constant and for SBC only. All other engines the constant is different. He doesn’t have a constant for LS. What he used wasn’t right and he knew that. There’s nothing wrong with the math, it just hasn’t been corrected and proven yet. It’s going to take 100’s of cams and pulls to do that.

He just used what he had.
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That’s not true. I have in my notes, which came right from DV’s lips to my notes is 128 is for inline wedges.

132 is for BBC. I knew it was 132 or 135. It’s 132.

127 he has as SBF.

Plus you have to adjust the LSA from that number depending on compression ratio.

It gets pretty convoluted doing it his way.

He has enough experience.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
He claims the 128 number is for inline wedge heads. I think I have it written down somewhere but it seems to me canted valve heads use 135. Or maybe it’s 132. Something like that.

IMO if you have actually tested 19,000 cams you’d have a pretty damn good idea what cam timing should look like.

I get it’s an LS but it’s still an inline wedge. I think some guys missed because they assumed that head would need less overlap like a canted valve head.

And I think some failed on exhaust duration. Reducing pumping losses is a big deal as long as you don’t get more overlap than you need.
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The main thing I notice with LS engines is the cams are generally on the smaller side for a given hp 210-230 are 400-500 hp cams. (same with gen 3 hemi's). Probably due to these engines coming with 250-350 cfm stock.
 
Jim Kueneman said:
He is a research engineer and near the end of his tenure. I spent my career as an engineer devising tests and pulling data out of them to learn. The older I get I would rather have the knowledge than the win. I still say he knew the answer and saw 3 cams that were right and used this test as a learning tool and let the next generation win and build their reputations, he just wanted a larger data set. You can actually maybe get that vibe from him if you watch his last few videos on the test. Pure conjecture based on someone who has a similar career (different field though)
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Then why do that publicly? He should have tested on his own.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Then why do that publicly? He should have tested on his own.
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He can’t anymore. His health is such he can’t leave his home. The last 6 months of videos you can see the decline clearly. He discusses that as well and jumped at Eric’s generosity because he no longer has the ability or resources.
 
Jim Kueneman said:
He is a research engineer and near the end of his tenure. I spent my career as an engineer devising tests and pulling data out of them to learn. The older I get I would rather have the knowledge than the win. I still say he knew the answer and saw 3 cams that were right and used this test as a learning tool and let the next generation win and build their reputations, he just wanted a larger data set. You can actually maybe get that vibe from him if you watch his last few videos on the test. Pure conjecture based on someone who has a similar career (different field though)
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All that "experience" and he got absolutely destroyed with a cam that was designed by a 25 year old kid. Not to mention 13 other people, a few of which dont build engines for a living, or write books.
 
Jim Kueneman said:
He can’t anymore. His health is such he can’t leave his home. The last 6 months of videos you can see the decline clearly. He discusses that as well and jumped at Eric’s generosity because he no longer has the ability or resources.
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Cant leave his home? Hell, he has a recent video where he is testing a cold air intake on his new model mustang, at the drag strip.
 
Jim Kueneman said:
He can’t anymore. His health is such he can’t leave his home. The last 6 months of videos you can see the decline clearly. He discusses that as well and jumped at Eric’s generosity because he no longer has the ability or resources.
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I just hear excuses. I know his age and health.

That doesn’t stopping him from making videos.

And I get the difference between making a video (which I hate to do myself) and doing dyno testing but I’d think with all his experience he’d do better than that.

Again, I’m not bashing on the guy. I’m just stating how I see it.
 
I'm no DV hater, but he does and worst his fans do go on and on how he's the cam king.
And yes this test don't prove anything definitive would need to do a lot more of these but if you were DV's customer in this case you would of came up short, does he and his fans deserve a little ribbing sure :) cause no one is dunking on all the others that came up short cause probably there a little more modest, most the top professional I see talk about performance admit they don't know everything.

In the end of the day DV's cam wasn't terrible did do decent peak torque and average hp and torque just mainly fell short in peak hp mainly cause it's a pretty mild cam and this engine could of used a lot more exhaust duration, his ivc ivo were almost identical to the winning cam.
 
Here are a few pages from DV’s How to Build Horsepower book. Shows some of his thoughts on LCA vs displacement.

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Earlie A said:
Here are a few pages from DV’s How to Build Horsepower book. Shows some of his thoughts on LCA vs displacement.

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What I don't get about his formula, one it's not a cam formula just an LSA formula, two it's based on valve to cid ratio, think it would be cfm to cid if anything. A 2.02 valve could be just 360 head with a 2.02 slapped in to a trickflow +, pretty big difference. I'm sure a 360 or 408 gonna struggle to breath more with the former. Hard to believe you can just boil it down to valve size.
 
WTF are people on here making excuses for dv ?
He's a self proclaimed pro, The dudes cam sucked. His formula sucked/ sucks, the rules for every entry were the same.
Dv as was stated before is a writer & if you've read any of his books like I have you find no answers, and a nightmare to read, it is as scattered as his brain.
The problem with defending dv is that he is an egomaniac and he won't learn from this.
I would guarantee he could not make a camshaft to win this competition even if he only was allowed to redo a cam.
Lastly, he hangs with the likes of Uncle phony and that means he has a credibility value in the negative.
The end .
 
MOPARMAGA said:
WTF are people on here making excuses for dv ?
He's a self proclaimed pro, The dudes cam sucked. His formula sucked/ sucks, the rules for every entry were the same.
Dv as was stated before is a writer & if you've read any of his books like I have you find no answers, and a nightmare to read, it is as scattered as his brain.
The problem with defending dv is that he is an egomaniac and he won't learn from this.
I would guarantee he could not make a camshaft to win this competition even if he only was allowed to redo a cam.
Lastly, he hangs with the likes of Uncle phony and that means he has a credibility value in the negative.
The end .
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The end for you. You should write a book or two.
 
Unless they're just a dead stupid mismatch, I think any of our personal cam choices are the best for what we're doing at the time. I don't really give a fig about what someone else is doing, or about what their opinions are.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Unless they're just a dead stupid mismatch, I think any of our personal cam choices are the best for what we're doing at the time. I don't really give a fig about what someone else is doing, or about what their opinions are.
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Most of us are not building/racing in highly competitive race classes, so as long your satisfied with the results/compromises that's all that matters, the build doesn't have be done to someone else's idea of proper/right/best etc.. way of doing it.
 
273 said:
Most of us are not building/racing in highly competitive race classes, so as long your satisfied with the results/compromises that's all that matters, the build doesn't have be done to someone else's idea of proper/right/best etc.. way of doing it.
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Exactamundo. And I tell you something. If I was building a race only, or really hot street/race car, you know what I would do? I would use one of the recipes out of the Mopar Performance engine manual. They still SLAP WORK.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I would use one of the recipes out of the Mopar Performance engine manual. They still SLAP WORK.
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Just think what can be done with their recipes with the heads available today.
FWIW Ma was conservative on the ET classes with certain combo's.
 
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