Evaluate Timing chain sets

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The holes in my sprocket all appear to be equally spaced, so never thought of them being "balanced". I figured it was for "lightening" purposes. Well hopefully the cam(older NOS) and sprocket are "matched".
Thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:
Oldmanmopar said:
I would say everything must be balanced. Years ago at the beginning the LA had an nylon covered aluminum top gear. The balance for the eccentric would have been built into the camshaft as any turning engine part things need to be balanced. Today Good camshaft manufactures balance their cams. Sprockets/gears.

They would also be balanced just like a damper, converter, flywheel, or what ever spins, Even your factory rear axles with the hole to remove them has two smaller holes opposite to balance them after 67.

Having your cam and gear assembly with the eccentric attached balanced. That would tell you if your camshaft was balanced with the eccentric on it. If it was your timing gear/sprocket should be neutral balanced . Not all these race cams today consider the use of the oblong eccentric bolted to the front of the cam. Because the fuel pump was eliminated in 1988. 35 years ago.

Does it mean a lot if your street engine has a balance cam assembly? Who knows. But like I said before harmonics play hell on all rotating parts even your tires. Why would you see a reason for the holes on one side of this timing sprocket? I would say for balancing. And if the billet sprocket was that far out of balance on its own there would be an issue with material .

If my son gets freed up I'll see if I can get him to put this on the digital balancer for some numbers with a billet roller cam and a stock cam. With and without a eccentric.

I am also curious to see some numbers on this.

View attachment 1716040120
Click to expand...
 
4spdragtop said:
The holes in my sprocket all appear to be equally spaced, so never thought of them being "balanced". I figured it was for "lightening" purposes. Well hopefully the cam(older NOS) and sprocket are "matched".
Thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with the 2 gears matching, it's only the cam gear balance we are talking about. The crank...if you are on your game... you will have the flywheel, flexplate, dampener and crank gear on...or all available with the rotating assembly when having it balanced. I do not believe any small block Mopar camshaft is specifically balanced per say...and that's probably due to the lobes being shorter than the journals along with the valve spring n lifters dampening it. I'm not the final say on that but it's got to make sense
 
Great info guys I'm learning!!
I have more popcorn to watch round two.
On the Crank Gear the Offset ability it gives to you. Why use it?
I am assuming that "if" your goal was an initial timing of 12 and you selected to install with a +8 the light would actually appear to show the timing as +4 ?
Is that right?
If so, what if another person checked your timing, wouldn't they be confused with the timing showing as +4 ?
:rolleyes:
 
LOL. For one thing, there is no such thing as a “good” timing chain.

They are used because they are cheap and you can put a dot on each gear and Chimpo the trained monkey can install it.

All chains and the chainwheels (sprockets) they run on wear out. And they wear out quickly.

The SBM has one of the longest, if not the widest center to center distance of any V8. It certainly is the widest of any small block.

You can run the tensioner on a roller timing chain. It will wear into the rubbing blocks but once it gets down to the rollers themselves it will stop wearing. The rubbing blocks are made of UHMW or a similar materiel. It work hardens as it wears.

I defy anyone to show me an SAE white paper or any other scientifically tested paper from a reliable source where the weight of the fuel pump eccentric caused an issue.

That eccentric is so close to the center of the shaft AND and turns HALF the speed of the crank that what little is out won’t be anywhere near outside of industry standard race engine balance tolerance.

Thats picking the pepper out of the fly ****, and it’s not new. This has been debated for decades and the end is it doesn’t matter.

I won’t put together an engine with a timing chain and not use a tensioner. As long as one was available.

In my world people would stop stepping over donuts to pick up dog **** and they would buy a Milodon gear drive and never look back.
 
Rat Bastid said:
LOL. For one thing, there is no such thing as a “good” timing chain.

They are used because they are cheap and you can put a dot on each gear and Chimpo the trained monkey can install it.

All chains and the chainwheels (sprockets) they run on wear out. And they wear out quickly.

The SBM has one of the longest, if not the widest center to center distance of any V8. It certainly is the widest of any small block.

You can run the tensioner on a roller timing chain. It will wear into the rubbing blocks but once it gets down to the rollers themselves it will stop wearing. The rubbing blocks are made of UHMW or a similar materiel. It work hardens as it wears.

I defy anyone to show me an SAE white paper or any other scientifically tested paper from a reliable source where the weight of the fuel pump eccentric caused an issue.

That eccentric is so close to the center of the shaft AND and turns HALF the speed of the crank that what little is out won’t be anywhere near outside of industry standard race engine balance tolerance.

Thats picking the pepper out of the fly ****, and it’s not new. This has been debated for decades and the end is it doesn’t matter.

I won’t put together an engine with a timing chain and not use a tensioner. As long as one was available.

In my world people would stop stepping over donuts to pick up dog **** and they would buy a Milodon gear drive and never look back.
Click to expand...
Check your messages, dork.
 
Rat Bastid said:
LOL. For one thing, there is no such thing as a “good” timing chain.

They are used because they are cheap and you can put a dot on each gear and Chimpo the trained monkey can install it.

All chains and the chainwheels (sprockets) they run on wear out. And they wear out quickly.

The SBM has one of the longest, if not the widest center to center distance of any V8. It certainly is the widest of any small block.

You can run the tensioner on a roller timing chain. It will wear into the rubbing blocks but once it gets down to the rollers themselves it will stop wearing. The rubbing blocks are made of UHMW or a similar materiel. It work hardens as it wears.

I defy anyone to show me an SAE white paper or any other scientifically tested paper from a reliable source where the weight of the fuel pump eccentric caused an issue.

That eccentric is so close to the center of the shaft AND and turns HALF the speed of the crank that what little is out won’t be anywhere near outside of industry standard race engine balance tolerance.

Thats picking the pepper out of the fly ****, and it’s not new. This has been debated for decades and the end is it doesn’t matter.

I won’t put together an engine with a timing chain and not use a tensioner. As long as one was available.

In my world people would stop stepping over donuts to pick up dog **** and they would buy a Milodon gear drive and never look back.
Click to expand...
If you read this Hughes who sells these tensioners does not recommend their use with a roller chain. And a cordial chain will not provide the strength for higher spring loads for bigger cam installs. The chain to sprocket engagement using a tensioner with a roller cause linear variations of the speed of the chain and will effect operation.

This is one article from a seller of the chain. The first pic is the correct chain to be used with lighter strength valve springs and tensioner. These timing tensioners should not be used with a roller chain due to linear variations and the cam jerking around with a roller chain use.

But you need a stronger true roller chain for High performance cams. Those are words from Hughes. A cam jerking around could cause premature wear on everything. Who's to say maybe even the lobes and lifters? Words from many seam to warn against the use of a tensioner on performance SB mopar engines


Gallery: Installing a Hughes Engines Small Block Timing Chain Tensioner - Mopar Connection Magazine | A comprehensive daily resource for Mopar enthusiast news, features and the latest Mopar tech
 
Oldmanmopar said:
If you read this Hughes who sells these tensioners does not recommend their use with a roller chain. And a cordial chain will not provide the strength for higher spring loads for bigger cam installs. The chain to sprocket engagement using a tensioner with a roller cause linear variations of the speed of the chain and will effect operation.

This is one article from a seller of the chain. The first pic is the correct chain to be used with lighter strength valve springs and tensioner. These timing tensioners should not be used with a roller chain due to linear variations and the cam jerking around with a roller chain use.

But you need a stronger true roller chain for High performance cams. Those are words from Hughes. A cam jerking around could cause premature wear on everything. Who's to say maybe even the lobes and lifters? Words from many seam to warn against the use of a tensioner on performance SB mopar engines


Gallery: Installing a Hughes Engines Small Block Timing Chain Tensioner - Mopar Connection Magazine | A comprehensive daily resource for Mopar enthusiast news, features and the latest Mopar tech
Click to expand...
You need to go back and re-read the article, that info is not from hughes that is the opinion of Chris Holley for mopar connection. This pic is directly from hughes website and clearly shows a double roller. Why don't you actually call hughes rather than try to find web articles to support your opinion.

hug6450a.jpg

https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=27143
Funny they even mention "race engines" in the listing.
 
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lead69 said:
You need to go back and re-read the article, that info is not from hughes that is the opinion of Chris Holley for mopar connection. This pic is directly from hughes website and clearly shows a double roller. Why don't you actually call hughes rather than try to find web articles to support your opinion.

View attachment 1716040382
https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=27143
Funny they even mention "race engines" in the listing.
Click to expand...

Facts are facts. And the FACT is HUGHES say you CAN use a tensioner with a roller chain.

The fact is, as I always say a timing chain is a cheap method to run the camshaft.

I value quality and accuracy over myths, conjecture, speculation and outright bullshit.

A timing chain gets a tensioner. A performance engine gets a QUALITY gear drive.
 
lead69 said:
You need to go back and re-read the article, that info is not from hughes that is the opinion of Chris Holley for mopar connection. This pic is directly from hughes website and clearly shows a double roller. Why don't you actually call hughes rather than try to find web articles to support your opinion.

View attachment 1716040382
https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=27143
Funny they even mention "race engines" in the listing.
Click to expand...
Talk about cheesy. lol
 
Rat Bastid said:
Facts are facts. And the FACT is HUGHES say you CAN use a tensioner with a roller chain.

The fact is, as I always say a timing chain is a cheap method to run the camshaft.

I value quality and accuracy over myths, conjecture, speculation and outright bullshit.

A timing chain gets a tensioner. A performance engine gets a QUALITY gear drive.
Click to expand...
Gear drives are obsolete in my mind, belt drive is the way to go. imo
 
lead69 said:
You need to go back and re-read the article, that info is not from hughes that is the opinion of Chris Holley for mopar connection. This pic is directly from hughes website and clearly shows a double roller. Why don't you actually call hughes rather than try to find web articles to support your opinion.

View attachment 1716040382
https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=27143
Funny they even mention "race engines" in the listing.
Click to expand...
That ^^^^ is the correct roller chain to use with a tensioner. The roller chains that have the "dog bone" style links are the chains that chew into the tensioner shoes. I have preached this on here for YEARS, but no one ever listens or acknowledges it.
 
fishmens67 said:
Gear drives are obsolete in my mind, belt drive is the way to go. imo
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It's kind of like what you can afford at the local fast food place, you have:
A. value meal=timing chain
B. regular meal=gear drive
C. supersized=belt drive
I haven't yet been able to justify the belt drive although rat made me a deal on a gear drive lol.
 
lead69 said:
You need to go back and re-read the article, that info is not from hughes that is the opinion of Chris Holley for mopar connection. This pic is directly from hughes website and clearly shows a double roller. Why don't you actually call hughes rather than try to find web articles to support your opinion.

View attachment 1716040382
https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...VGltaW5nIENoYWluICYgQ29tcG9uZW50&partid=27143
Funny they even mention "race engines" in the listing.
Click to expand...
The info on using the hughes tensioner is correct in the article I posted. Looking at the photo of the slack in that chain you posted. I would say you would need a tensioner with that. I've seen used chains with less slack. Wonder what that thing would look like after a couple miles?

With a chain that bad you would have to allow for 500 mile slack on install when degreeing it. I would be ashamed to post a picture of a new chain with that much slack. Whats with the punched pins on the Chain? Who makes that chain?
 
fishmens67 said:
Gear drives are obsolete in my mind, belt drive is the way to go. imo
Click to expand...

The belt drive still isn’t as accurate as a gear drive. It can’t be by its very nature.

The only advantage the belt drive has over the gear drive is how quickly you can retard or advance a cam. The only reason it’s quicker is because it’s out in the open.

Other than that, it has no advantage.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
The info on using the hughes tensioner is correct in the article I posted. Looking at the photo of the slack in that chain you posted. I would say you would need a tensioner with that. I've seen used chains with less slack. Wonder what that thing would look like after a couple miles?

With a chain that bad you would have to allow for 500 mile slack on install when degreeing it. I would be ashamed to post a picture of a new chain with that much slack. Whats with the punched pins on the Chain? Who makes that chain?
Click to expand...

I read the article. It’s NOT Hughes saying it.
 
Rat Bastid said:
The belt drive still isn’t as accurate as a gear drive. It can’t be by its very nature.

The only advantage the belt drive has over the gear drive is how quickly you can retard or advance a cam. The only reason it’s quicker is because it’s out in the open.

Other than that, it has no advantage.
Click to expand...
Check your messages, moe-rahn.
 
I have a Comp Cams Double Roller on mine. Been working great since around 1995.
 
Rat Bastid said:
The belt drive still isn’t as accurate as a gear drive. It can’t be by its very nature.

The only advantage the belt drive has over the gear drive is how quickly you can retard or advance a cam. The only reason it’s quicker is because it’s out in the open.

Other than that, it has no advantage.
Click to expand...
harmonics?
 
Oldmanmopar said:
The info on using the hughes tensioner is correct in the article I posted. Looking at the photo of the slack in that chain you posted. I would say you would need a tensioner with that. I've seen used chains with less slack. Wonder what that thing would look like after a couple miles?

With a chain that bad you would have to allow for 500 mile slack on install when degreeing it. I would be ashamed to post a picture of a new chain with that much slack. Whats with the punched pins on the Chain? Who makes that chain?
Click to expand...
I would disagree with the part that you cannot use them on a double roller timing chain, as rrr pointed out that style link is fine for use with the tensioner. I have used the same style chains with tensioners and have not had a problem. As far as the chain stretch/brand I cannot comment, you would need to ask hughes since it's there picture.

The problem I see with chains now is it seems like they are all outsourced crap/poor quality. I have checked quite a few chains that were setup correctly (the right amount of tension) after some street time and found almost all had stretched more than I want to see. I don't just base this off my own experiences but local engine builders, friends of friends etc. One of the worst I saw was our buddys chevy 406 with the most expensive cloyes he could buy and it was stretched with only a couple hundred miles on it.

Again these are not just random cheap chains installed with some slop, these are quality billet chains installed that were the right amount of "tightness" and checked after street miles/passes. Once we started checking them is when we saw a pattern across the board-even with a pontiac. I agree a tensioner is a band aid but I trust the quality of modern timing chains about as much as our government.
 
One thing I will add is we have a lot of four speed cars in our group so the chains get some usage, I really hope we see good results with the pro gear timing chain @Scody21 is using. Hughes told him the chain was good enough that it was up to him to run the tensioner or not but I don't remember if he did.
 
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