F.I. Tech or Holley sniper. Opinions from users.
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LJ67barracuda340
Well-Known Member
When was your unit purchased?
It was purchased around June of 16 and failed in August of 18 with only 1400 miles on it.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
The Pro Flo does look good. I already have an RPM Air Gap though, but I know I could sell that. I'm torn because I wanted to keep a "period correct" look, & a Sniper would hide pretty well under the drop base air cleaner.
Yeah, I was worried about "period correct too"... I even made brackets to hold the 8 LS coils in the back so once the air cleaner was on it looked like it has a distributor...
BTW. This is not a Pro Flow system. It's 100% custom built by me. That's an M1 manifold with bungs welded into it.
gzig5
Well-Known Member
Looks great. What are you using for a controller and throttle body?
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
I'm using an MS3X (Megasquirt) It has full sequential fuel and spark. The throttle body is an Ebay special. The only bad thing is it's imported from China and the seller has zero information on what sensors it uses. I had to figure that out on my own, which wasn't that bad. I think I paid $180 for it. You can buy name brands out there for $500+, which is ridiculous, but I guess you would know what sensors it would accept....
Of the three guys that I know that have aftermarket EFI swaps, all three have had to be towed at least once due to some bullshit failure that could not be fixed on site. One had to have a 200 mile in tank pump changed while on a road trip.
The FITech underhood command center seems to be a ineffective crutch for the man that doesn't want to use an "In tank" pump.
From here, it looks like the manufacturers know how to build a reliable system but they are up against the wall in terms of doing it at a price that is low enough to sell in acceptable numbers. They could spend more on development but that will result in a big price increase and scare off most people.
The FITech underhood command center seems to be a ineffective crutch for the man that doesn't want to use an "In tank" pump.
From here, it looks like the manufacturers know how to build a reliable system but they are up against the wall in terms of doing it at a price that is low enough to sell in acceptable numbers. They could spend more on development but that will result in a big price increase and scare off most people.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
So are you saying a fuel pump for a carbed engine can't fail? I bet more than half of the guys on this forum are using an electric pump of some sort. They can fail just as easy as an EFI pump.
Any part can fail. MY point was that the added complexity of EFI has made it really difficult to fix when things go wrong.
You can "gravity feed" a carbureted car and still drive it.
Half the "guys" using electric? I doubt it.
You can "gravity feed" a carbureted car and still drive it.
Half the "guys" using electric? I doubt it.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
There are obviously more components on an EFI engine, but if you actually understand it, like you understand a carb and distributor, fixing it is a piece of cake.
What racerjoe said. Kim
Can you replace an in tank fuel pump on the side of the road? Can you properly diagnose a faulty hot start issue without a gaggle of electronic diagnostic tools?
If the EFI stuff were more reliable, I'd be more supportive of it. As of now, I see too many cases where it screws up, tech support is either no help or no parts are in the supply chain to fix....Then the owner yanks the system and goes back to a carburetor.
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
Ive head that FITec is a Chinese company but the head programmer is from Iowa, apparently I know someone who knows him?
Yeah I agree at this point in time. It will get better in the future but right now a person needs to have an early adopter mind set to go with EFI. That means being willing to do some trouble shooting if the need comes up. I've done a lot of EFI conversions over the last couple of years and I've run into a lot of problems. Some of them I can figure out and fix, some of them need factory help, some of them the factory can't even fix. The Sniper software is a little sketchy at the moment so sometimes they fail in weird ways that even experts can't fix. The Sniper is also susceptible to RF noise. Most hot rodders don't know what RF noise is or how to fix it so when they run into RF noise issues they are lost.
When I first started using EFI on my own cars I encouraged everyone I knew to switch to EFI. After I saw how some people struggle with things I consider to be really simple I started to change my mind. Now I only recommend EFI to people who have basic computer skills and are interested in learning something new. I don't recommend it to people who can't find a file in a folder on their hard drive. I know one local car builder who has incredible fab skills but he doesn't know how to attach a file to an email. He tried EFI on his hot rod for a few months and then went back to a carb. He was just more comfortable with a carb. He builds some of the nicest cars in the region but EFI was out of his comfort zone. One of the best engine builders in the area is also that way. He loves how EFI runs on his engines, but he refuses to open up the laptop to learn how it works. He has someone else handle that stuff for him. He has convinced himself that he can't learn EFI.
I respect your opinion, Andy and I am glad that you didn't take my words as a doomsayer crying that the sky is falling.
I agree that these systems require a deeper understanding of the program. That is one of the reasons that I am skeptical. I also agree that like many other forms of new tech, it should improve with more development.
With a carb, you can be a simpleton and still keep your car running.
With EFI, at least as it is currently, you either gamble that it will work or you educate yourself on how it works and how to fix it if/when it fails.
I am stubborn to accept new things unless they are a huge improvement over an established standard. I don't have a car that is driven from sea level to 14,000 feet in a day. I don't live in a cold climate. I don't drive my classic every day. The features that EFI offers are not enough to sway me their way....yet.
I agree that these systems require a deeper understanding of the program. That is one of the reasons that I am skeptical. I also agree that like many other forms of new tech, it should improve with more development.
With a carb, you can be a simpleton and still keep your car running.
With EFI, at least as it is currently, you either gamble that it will work or you educate yourself on how it works and how to fix it if/when it fails.
I am stubborn to accept new things unless they are a huge improvement over an established standard. I don't have a car that is driven from sea level to 14,000 feet in a day. I don't live in a cold climate. I don't drive my classic every day. The features that EFI offers are not enough to sway me their way....yet.
Not even close to the truth. EFI systems have tons of code in them and if something messes up the code nobody can fix it. I've bricked a few ECU's over time that even the factory couldn't fix. I've had weird system errors that the factory engineers couldn't explain. I've seen brand new ECU's go up in smoke when they are turned on. I've had injectors fail in weird ways that were super hard to diagnosis and couldn't be repaired without factory assistance. There are all sorts of weird Windows related things that happen with some of the EFI software that nobody understands. Stuff that will work sometimes but then won't work other times. Stuff that works with one release of Windows but not with a new release, or stuff that used to work but then your laptop gets upgraded overnight by Microsoft and then the EFI process doesn't work the next day.
When you are working with a carb everything that makes the carb work can be seen and touched. You can physically see all of the parts, passages, springs, check balls, etc. When you work EFI you can't see most of what is going on. Even if you have lab grade tools like a scope or logic analyzer you still can't see the code base. The guys at the factory probably have the ability to step thru the code line by line and see what is happening but nobody in the field has that ability. So there are times when the EFI system is doing stuff that nobody understands. And there is no way to understand it since we have no idea what the code is looking for.
I have a Holley system sitting here that nobody can figure out. It has been on multiple engines and back to the factory and it just doesn't work right. Nobody has any idea what is wrong. We've tested every thing that anyone can think of but the system just runs super weird. I had an Edelbrock Pro Flo system that also ran super weird on an engine. It took a bunch of time to debug but we finally did figure out that it had been programmed with the wrong firing order. I've seen systems where the Holley wiring harness was put together wrong and it took a long time for someone to figure out. Basically the owner of the car had to hire an engineer to debug the system because nobody else could figure it out. The average hot rodder isn't going to figure stuff like that out. I worked on an EFI install that had been to a bunch of different shops. It ran like crap at idle but ran great everywhere else. It took some time but eventually I figured that one out.
Shoot, if ANDY has trouble with this stuff, what hope is there for us regular guys ??
Think positive. Don’t be a negative Nellie. Kim
If you aren't excited about switching to EFI then you shouldn't switch. The low dollar EFI systems on the market today are a little buggy and if that is going to frustrate you then don't install one. I like the challenge of solving puzzles and I like the data logging capability and I like the tuning capability of EFI so I put up with the weird stuff. I also have the financial resources to fix stuff if it fails. People who don't want their car to be a puzzle or don't have the resources to pay others to debug their car should probably steer clear of the cheap kits for now. I think it is a mind set issue. I can tell within a few minutes of talking to someone if they should install EFI or not. I only recommend EFI to about half the car guys I know. The other guys I just tell to keep their carb. If you don't want to switch then you shouldn't.
I once knew a guy who didn't want to get married but his girlfriend kept insisting that they get married since her friends were getting married and she didn't want to be the last one. He went ahead with it and the marriage didn't last very long. Same thing with EFI. Don't do just because your friends are doing it. Don't do it until you want to do it. When you want to do it then you'll be motivated to make it successful.
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Good conversation here guys...
Andy, while I agree there can be some finite levels of failures within the electronics and software that most people can't fix or explain, simlilar can hold true for the Mopar orange ignition box. You aren't going to bust that thing open on the side of the road and start soldering components in it to repair it, you're going to replace the box. Lots of guys run MSD boxes, same principle. They fail and no one knows why. That doesn't stop hot rodders from using them, nor are they going to open them up and figure out what broke. I realize carrying a spare ECU is not cheap so that's the risk you take by converting to EFI. I also agree it isn't for everyone. Being an electrical engineer, I enjoy the technology in my 50 year old car and also understand how all the components work (maybe not board level though). I also took great care when making my harness to prevent noise in my engine and cam signals. Grounding of everything is also extremely important with EFI. Take a look at modern cars. There are grounds everywhere! When I was putting my car together and thought I had too many grounds, I added more.
If you are the type of guy that won't take the car out the driveway unless it can be fixed with a crescent wrench and jumper wire, stay away from EFI. These are the types of guys that will try it, have problems, then blame the components. In the end, the problems were likely user error and/or negligence to do proper installs.
The EFI throttle bodies that were used by the auto makers in the mid 80's didn't fail like we see the after market units causing so much problems. When the after market ECU fails when it is hot, but ok when it's cold something is wrong somewhere. I had several Mopars with throttle body EFI and the only problem with those cars was the unit in the distributor went bad.
I'm not a fan of the Edelbrock system since it doesn't have data logging. I don't see any point in buying an aftermaket EFI system if it doesn't allow you to data log events. Data logging is the key to tuning and problem solving.
gzig5
Well-Known Member
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