Fluid Dampener How To.........???

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pastortom1

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Hey guys.........

From someone who has zero experience with installing a fluid dampener (balancer).........

Do I understand that the dampener actually replaces the existing harminic balancer, OR does it bolt up to the balancer behind the pulley? (in which case, I'd certainly need a new pulley)........

If it replaces the balancer, what am I up against in pulling the old one......any problems I need to know about beforehand? Anyone who's done this, I could use some detailed input..............

Thanks............. Doc :thumbup:
 
Yes the fluid balancer is a replacement for your stock balancer. To pull your stock one you'll need a harmonic balancer puller. With that their nothing to pull. One thing to make sure to do though when your pulling the old one is to take the thick washer off the big center bolt and screw the bolt back into the crank so the balancer puller don't go into the crank and damage the threads.

Also make sure you get the correct balancer for your engine since the 360 is different than all the rest.
 
I've heard on this site that an average dampner costs under or around $100........... After running a few manufacturers, I see they vary from $78. up to nearly $500................................!!!!!

I need someone to help us out here.............

We believe the 340 in question has a balance problem not directly related to the flywheel or torque converter............We have vibration at 1400 rpm, and again at 2800 rpm, and probably at the next matching frequency as well..............

We'd like to get rid of it........very annoying........not very good for the motor either I would imagine..........It's a relatively new rebuild, all great components, but they didn't balance it..........brilliant...........

There are so many balancers available that it's dizzying if you don't know the ropes........ Neutral, Internal Balance, Fluid Filled, etc............ I don't know what the difference is between the stock Mopar balancer and the aftermarket balancers that are available............We need to address the IMBALANCE.........not just bolt on a new one with a fancy name that won't FIX the problem.

Help us out here, and I'm sure a detailed response as to the in's and out's of Balancers and Dampners will be a help to ALL of our members.

Thanks............................ Doc :thumbup:
 
Definetly sounds like you have a unbalance problem if it's shaking like that. You mentioned it is rebuilt but it wasn't balanced. Were the pistons changed? If so that could be the problem. If you change the pistons out for lighter ones (like so many new ones are) you will create an unballanced situation that can only be resolved by balancing the engine. No balancer you put on it will take care of that problem. The engine will need to be disassembled and balanced.

As far as which dampener to use you need to know if the engine is internally or externally balanced. Internal balanced ones were the older steel crank 340's. External balanced are the newer cast crank 340's. I'm not positive on the year they changed but I think 72 is when they went to the cast crank. If you have an older one (71 or older) it will be neutral balanced so you don't want weights on the converter and you want a neutral balanced balancer.

BTW: does the vibration happen all the time or only when your driving down the road? If it does it driving down the road only it could be a drivetrain problem such as the wrong converter, out of balance driveshaft, tire out of balance, etc... If it does do it setting still it is probably an unbalanced situation in the engine. But the one thing that is common in both neutral and driving is the converter so make sure it is correct. I would highly advise against driving it until it's resolved or it could do permanent damage.
 
I balancer will not fix an out-of-balance condition, unless it's imbalance was figured into the balancing itself. Sounds like the engine was not balanced properly. The right term is "harmonic dampner". It eases the harmonics from the firing pulses in the crank.

On the Fluidamper, you better have a good installer tool too. Dont just hammer or "pull it on" with the crank bolt.
 
As Fishy stated: you may want to check your convertor before spending extra money for something that won't help.
A few years back trying to ID a vibration my 727 was pulled and the shop found it had the wrong convertor in it. The shop just cut off the weights until I bought a new convertor. (But that can do it) :cussing:
 
According to the spec sheet I have, it's a 1970 340, stock crank, bored .30 over, LD340 Intake, Edelbrock aluminum heads, Holley 670....mated to a 727 with a shift kit, and a 2800 stall converter....................

I've been told different things by different people relative to the "crank vs. converter" problems some have experienced.

How do I know that this is the "right" converter for the motor with a steel crank, which I'm told was stock on the 1970? I had a tranny shop take a look for some obvious problems today, but that was as fruitless as I had suspected it would be..........

This motor has a leaking rear oil seal already, with less than 3000 miles on it.......no idea why....... I need to have the trans dropped and the seal replaced.........I suppose if I replace the converter with a stock model for the 1970 motor (unless you guys know of some reason I'd NEED a stall in it for driving and cruising), and then the vibration stops, I'm ahead of the game...................

BUT, if it does not stop the vibration, then I can just about be sure that it's the internals...............rods, pistons, etc..........correct?

Again, it vibrates in Park....not just driving.....it's in the engine, not the wheels or tires..........when driving, you hear and feel the constant "wom-wom-wom" of the balance problem, that changes frequency with your rpm's..............at parked idle, it's 1400 and 2800 consistently.

If it's the internals, is there a general concensus here that a dampner of some sort will NOT balance it? (Why not, I have to ask....I know it's more serious than a wheel, BUT it's the same mathematical principle, is it not?.....if the dampner won't balance it, what purpose does it serve? Race only? Super RPM's?)

Thanks for the time guys.....................Need to fully understand this if possible, before we start throwing money at the problem.

Doc :salute:
 
A little anti-sieze on the end of the crank where the balancer slides on will help also don't forget the crank bolt too, it could use some. Terry.
 
This may sound very basic, but have you ensured all cylinders are firing correctly without a bad miss, or checked your motor and trans mounts. Even a broken valve spring? Wouldn't hurt to do a compression test on all cylinders to be sure.

Sometimes we tend to look deeper then we have too.
 
If it is a 70 340 crank it is forged and requires no weights on the converter. Check that out first. The reason your rear seal is leaking is simple. The imbalance has trashed it. Hopefully it hasn't ruined your bearings too. If you have ran it much it probably has ate them up sorry to say. To answer your question as to why a harmonic dampner won't fix an imbalance problem the best thing I can think of is to compare it to a major cut on your head. Bandaids won't keep it closed. Bandaids take care of the little cuts but if you have a gash 2 inches long you need stitched up. Moper said it best with his clarification of us using the terms "balancer" vs Harmonic dampner". It really is a Harmonic dampner, not a balancer. No harmonic dampner will fix it unless you have the wrong dampner on it now.
 
pastor, you have to know how things get "balanced". So lets start with basics. Each crank has counterweights on them. They are strategically placed to offset the weight of the small end of the rod, and the pistons, rings, pins, oil, etc. In a stock engien, at least in a Mopar from the early 70s, most cranks were forged steel. It's heavier and more dense than cast. So it's stronger, but it also makes for a heavier counterweight. When any engine is rebuilt, certain wear parts are replaced. It is common for the performance work to replace stock type pistons and rings with lighter weight parts. Lighter is this case is always better. And ususally more $$. Stock replacement parts can also be used. However, the oversize stock parts (pistons) will be heavier than the factory std stuff. SO, the shop weighs everything, matches weights on everything, then sticks weights (called "bobweights") on the crank, to simluate the rods, pistons, rings, pins, and oil. Then the crank is spun. If the shop has the harmonic dampner, or the flexplate, or the torque convertor bolted to it, the crank is called externally balanced. That's because you are taking into account the weights of the parts bolted on it. It's usually cheaper, because in most cases, the additional parts carry extra weight to offset the bobweights. If the crank is spun by itself, the engine is called internally balanced. Because the only thing carrying weight to offset the bobweights are the crank's counterweights. I the case of almost all cast cranks and some forged (depending on how heavy the pistons are) the crank may need to be made heavier by adding "Mallory" metal to get things right. If it is internally balanced, the wrong balancer or torque convertor will make it shake. If it was externally balanced, and you didnt get the convertor it was baalnced with, it's a crapshoot as to what weight it needs to be good. If I had to make a call, I would say your 340 has a cast crank or heavy pistons, and the wrong harmonic dampner and a nuetral convertor on it. The paperwork for the engine should say what was done. If not, you are sentenced to changing parts until it's fixed (trial and error) or pulling it out, and having the lower end internally balanced to run any nuetral dampner and convertor. You issues are why I internally balance every engine, regardless of cost, and I supply records of all the work. It sure beats what you're going thru. I agree, the reason the thing is leaking is the imbalance. I was throwing out a 360 years ago in a parts car. I put a 904 trans with no weight on the convertor behind it just so I could move it around. The thing would rattle your fillings lose at 2000 rpm. The leak is the small symptom. Teh bearings will be another when you look at them. Out of balance in an engine is nothing like tires. Tires wont destroy themselves unless you push them in that shape. Engines hurt themselves even when you cant feel a problem.
 
Good write-up Mopar, it sure make sence now when you hear the term "a correctly balanced" motor and what it takes to achieve that :thumbup:
 
After reading about the main seal leak, I can't help but think the damage may have already been done. My advice would be to do some investigating on the lower end. Even if you find some internal/external balance components have been mix/matched to cause the vibration and correct it, the damage done to the bearings, etc. is unknown at this point. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to yank the motor and tear into the bottom end and get to the root of the problem. Just my .02.
 
Captainkirk said:
After reading about the main seal leak, I can't help but think the damage may have already been done. My advice would be to do some investigating on the lower end. Even if you find some internal/external balance components have been mix/matched to cause the vibration and correct it, the damage done to the bearings, etc. is unknown at this point. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to yank the motor and tear into the bottom end and get to the root of the problem. Just my .02.

I agree. I would pull the motor NOW instead of fighting this problem and possibly doing more damage. I know the motor only has 3,000 or so miles on the rebuild, but obviously something wasn't done correctly and I'd rather find out what it was now rather than later.
 
Doc,

Let us know what you find out with your vibration issues. I have the exact same issues with only a few thousand miles on rebuild. I bought the car a year and half ago have only put 1,000 miles on and it has had the same vibration since I've owned it. I haven't been able to contact the owner who did the rebuild. I have a 70 340 coupled to a A-833. I have checked the fly wheel and harmonic balancer and they seem to be correct with no wieghts. I haven't been able to verify if the crank is indeed a steel crank it left the factory with. I'm going to take it to a local engine builder to look at hopefully this week if the weather cooperates.
 
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