junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
dan, welcome back from your ayahuasca retreat in joshua tree.
might wanna fire up the ol' google machine and put "small block mopar heads" in the search bar.
For the W5 lovers
- Thread starter pittsburghracer
- Start date
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might wanna fire up the ol' google machine and put "small block mopar heads" in the search bar.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
And they are more designed for the 340 / 360 then the 318.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
That's awesome, I bet your car runs very well
318 bore isn't small it can handle valves larger than 2.02, It's smaller than a 360 but not by a huge amount especially after an overbore. If a 360 came with a 3.31 crank would of been a 333 cid engine 15 cid larger and a 340 7 cid larger than that. What would aluminum 318 head be ?
Basically copy of a Magnum or 1.88 J head ? Performance wise.
The 318 head is basically a 273 head and was designed for that which is a decent piece for a 273 has about the same cfm per cid ratio as a 340 why both are considered revvers.
A 340 head was designed for a relatively mild 340 275 hp only 22 cid more than a 318 and far closer than the 45 cid difference between 273 and 318.
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junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
why do you think this? please show your work.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
When ever I look up cylinder heads for the sbm it always includes the 340 and 360's. A mild 318 doesn't need 170cc intake runner's, a 318 that's built for the street usually focuses on low to midrange torque. A cylinder head that had more like a 150cc to 160cc intake runner size would be better for low to midrange torque. Not everyone needs 180cc intake runner's and 2.02 valves. AFR has a 165cc intake runner sized cylinder head specifically for the 289 302. Some guys use mopars 302 swirl port heads and that's fine
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
*sigh*
it's because stock heads are sufficient for small blocks built for the street, especially if you're looking for low to midrange torque.
why is this so difficult to understand?
it's because stock heads are sufficient for small blocks built for the street, especially if you're looking for low to midrange torque.
why is this so difficult to understand?
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I know guys who have went to the sbc simply because of the larger selection of parts and moket has seemed to always come up with new products for the sbc and sbf. True they has to be a demand but the supplier can create that demand. I don't know how many of you guys follow the competition but I do. Edelbrock has developed a cylinder head specifically for the small bore Chevy, 1.910" intake valve/ 1.500" exhaust with a closed chamber design, I forgot what the cc's of the chamber is. Guess what I'm trying to say here is that if they developed new intakes and cylinder heads for racing isn't that creating demand? I'm no expert by any means it's just that I think that the mopar world is not getting a fair share for a wider selection of products
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I need to contact a friend of mine who has a flow bench and get the results of his test on small block Mopar heads for the street, the results were not very good
AFR 165cc flow enough for 500+ hp about the same as speedmaster/edelbrocks, you can't compare CC from other engines, the might have vastly different port lengths. But say you can were talking 5-6 cc and a 16-29 cid difference shouldn't need a few more CCs. No performance aftermarket head is designed to be optimal size for under 400 hp.
Most 318 guy's are cheap.
If speedmaster sold a version of their heads with a chamber size that got 9:1 with stock lowest cr 318 short block, might be a seller to the 318 crowd. But you could just mill there heads an slap them on anyways.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
Hellrats
Just another dumbass
Yes. I still have a set on one of my cars. But I never understood why they called them "econo". Nothing about them are econo because you still need the expensive rocker set up. They do have two sets of bolt holes for the exhaust but the manifold ports are a terrible mismatch so you need expensive headers. I'm running them on a street car with one magnum manifold and one 340 manifold that have been opened up to match the ports as good as possible. Not the best flowing I'm sure but for a street car they work great and I don't have to mess with headers. Also a lot of guys milled the pedestals off of them to get the valve/rocker geometry right. Mine still have them so I used big block springs and shims to get them right.
Yes. The “Econo” head was supposed to be cheaper with the ability to use OEM rockers and standard length valves. I have a set of these myself. The dual exhaust bolt pattern came later after the initial introduction. The dual pattern exhaust, It’s also available on the race head.
W2 & W5’s are still floating around.
It’s already been done. You just don’t see it.
The 318 rep should be ignored and built as any other small block.
If anything, consider it a small bore 340. The draw back of a 318 is the weaker main caps which 99% of the people will never tax it and finally the overall bore size is less then optimum, but not a big deal. Getting a high compression ratio requires ether a domed piston and/or a very small chamber cylinder head.
The best thing to do to an318 performance or race wise is bore it out as far as possible to the 4.00 mark, if possible. At .060 over, it displaces 327.79. And you know those old school Chevy guys love the 327.
At .090, a 4.00 bore, it displaces 332.76ci.
This is a pile of BS everyone falls into. Cylinder heads have a job to do and what they were designed for as far as cubic inch displacement goes, leave that thought pattern at the factory door and move on and ignore it. What your looking for in a cylinder head in a high performance or race are a is the ability to move air in and out of the cylinder. This boils down to a few factors. Port window size, valve size, cfm flow and port efficiency.
MP ported a set of 318, 302 heads that out powered a set of stock 360 heads due to a more efficient port. But the problem here is a few things. No one wants to port an iron head and even more so than one that requires a lot of work. Also the fact it’s heavy iron.
Once you move beyond the ability of the 302 head to handle enough air to feed the engine, or just simply where a larger port comes into play better than the smaller 302 delivers, and what is needed, that’s when the 340/360 head comes into play.
We’ll find out later…… The pictured rocker gear sits up top my race W2 heads right now. I want to pick up a better set of TD/Jesel rockers for the W5.
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If someone puts in the effort of a new W5 head, well, first I’m not sure it’s a smart move. Reason being is that the chink knock off head, if properly prepped like in what @pittsburghracer race does in tubing the pushrod hole or just simply a moved pushrod hole can or should be able to be ported out to the W5 level.
I hate to give the chink companies my money for the ripped off knock off head. But John has shown some good numbers.
So if we get a chink knock off head modified with a moved pushrod hole????? IDK?
I hate to give the chink companies my money for the ripped off knock off head. But John has shown some good numbers.
So if we get a chink knock off head modified with a moved pushrod hole????? IDK?
Below is a solution to the intake port window pinch. Hughes did this on Edelbrock heads and it can be seen in an early Engine Masters episode. Steve Dulcich ported his heads with the pushrod holes filled in and refilled.
What’s an honest set of numbers from W5 heads. I’m knocking on 330 (228) with a standard location pushrod. My old set I’m running now and ported in 2008 flowed 318 and only because my ported Super Victor slowed the air down enough to stabilize the port. I’ve since learned how to do this without the help of an intake. Not sure where these heads will end up but for sure in the 330’s. Trouble is I can only put so much work into a set of customers heads for what I charge. When I get Vic’s 2.08 valves I’m hopeful I can offer heads in the 318-322 area.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Disagree! Not true. I’ll just say any serious Chevy or Ford is using a shaft mounted rocker. I’ll leave it at that.
Well…that’s what I meant. LOL. I was referring to heads of relatively equal capability power wise.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
That’s what the TF head is for. 2.02 valve and it will drop right on a 318, make way more power and up the compression.
The TF is hardly a race head. It’s a street head.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
If he fixes it he will end up with a W7.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Dan, stop reading magazines and the internet. Guys have been running 2.02 valves on 318’s since before I started doing this stuff.
A 170 CC runner is SMALL for 318 inches. And you can’t compare the runner volume of a GM head to a Chrysler or Ford head.
@pittsburghracer Best numbers I have seen are 330/335 from a W5. VIA Ryan @ the defunct Shadydell shop.
Now I’m not knocking your numbers are calling them out or suggesting anything here. But your number seem high to me.
With that said, I’m not a porter as you know and I don’t have a flow bench ether. It’s just an observation against other numbers I have seen on similar work. Your before and after numbers are what counts here in my book since they show the gains and the curve. That being said…..
I don’t know how far the metal goes on a W5 nor the Edelbrock or knock off head to allow more air in & out. I have read from a source I can’t think of is that the chink knock off head has more metal in the areas needed to get more cfm.
A simple FWIW, anytime I had a head flow tested and spoke about it, the crowd of supposed know it all folks will always ask and then state the following;
Always the question asked below.
1: Who’s flow bench/who flowed the head on what machine?
Always the response to my answer:
2: His machine is happy and inaccurate/he doesn’t know what he’s doing/his machine isn’t correctly calibrated/it’s not a good machine it should have been *** machine for a real/true reading
And the bullshit continues on.
Please continue to do what your doing.
Now I’m not knocking your numbers are calling them out or suggesting anything here. But your number seem high to me.
With that said, I’m not a porter as you know and I don’t have a flow bench ether. It’s just an observation against other numbers I have seen on similar work. Your before and after numbers are what counts here in my book since they show the gains and the curve. That being said…..
I don’t know how far the metal goes on a W5 nor the Edelbrock or knock off head to allow more air in & out. I have read from a source I can’t think of is that the chink knock off head has more metal in the areas needed to get more cfm.
A simple FWIW, anytime I had a head flow tested and spoke about it, the crowd of supposed know it all folks will always ask and then state the following;
Always the question asked below.
1: Who’s flow bench/who flowed the head on what machine?
Always the response to my answer:
2: His machine is happy and inaccurate/he doesn’t know what he’s doing/his machine isn’t correctly calibrated/it’s not a good machine it should have been *** machine for a real/true reading
And the bullshit continues on.
Please continue to do what your doing.
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Ding ding ding….. agreed! Likewise! Here here!
Even stock. But that’s nether here or there. Once you build a simple street performance engine, all stock dimensions are out the window. While a stock head can work & probably pretty OK, alter the head (porting) and more power comes in. You can go pretty far with a stock cylinder head and not loose any low end power or throttle response.
Each head should be compared and analyzed for its own drawbacks and attributes for the job and engine it sits on to be used for the job expected at hand.
My before numbers on my Edelbrock heads maxed out at 243cfm so I’d say I made some nice gains. There are very few guys that have done as many flow tests on Mopar small block Mopar and Speedmaster heads. The reason is it’s lost time and money to guys in the business. But for years o only did my own stuff for my own cars so I was out for max effort. How many guys in the business still race??? Not many and those that do test n tune twice a year or hit a Mopar event.
@pittsburghracer This is exactly why I love your threads and follow you. You’re honest and it shows.
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