Fresh carnage!

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Michael Siple said:
what we did - close - so far so good knock on wood - oiler dribbles instead of drooling
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I do not like the tube, looks like another disaster waiting to happen. I do like the safety wire. I like having 4 bolts to secure the thrust plate, especially without gallery plugs since that plate also seals the oil galleries at 65 psi. Just use the bolt with the hole. I checked chain stretch on one of my 340's with 100,000 miles. Using just the factory top passenger bolt with the hole in it, the slop was still within tolerance.

One .040 hole in the thrust plate also sounds like it would work.
 
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I wonder how much oil gets sloshed around the front of an engine just by oil that escapes the front bearings and front of the oil pan.
 
mopowers said:
I wonder how much oil gets sloshed around the front of an engine just by oil that escapes the front bearings and front of the oil pan.
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Less than you think.
 
66fs said:
We never used Loctite back in the day, with no problems. You do need to torque the bolts though. You do not need the drip tab if you use the bolt with the oiling hole.
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on the thrust plate bolts, yeah. but no loctite on the cam bolt?

Mopar Momzee said:
Was wondering myself about loctite as I just went through this few weeks ago and never was no mention of this. Hoping I didn’t miss something:(
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the FSM says thread locker on the cam, nothing on the thrust plate bolts. which i tend to give them a little drop of blue because of my paranoia tendencies.
 
So as i don’t recall adding loctite and after seeing the( CARNAGE ) im thinking its cheaper and less time to buy gaskets then to replace everything else that im seeing in the post. I’m most likely going to take care of it now. Can we say Paranoid. Yep
 
Mopar Momzee said:
So as i don’t recall adding loctite and after seeing the( CARNAGE ) im thinking its cheaper and less time to buy gaskets then to replace everything else that im seeing in the post. I’m most likely going to take care of it now. Can we say Paranoid. Yep
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a small investment in the abundance of caution category.

i know the job is a pain in all nine assholes, but man it would drive me to madness if i didn't.

also, check the washer on the bolt. if it's totally caved, i'd recommend a fresh or less crushed out one.
 
My $0.02.
I think you will find there is a small pocket behind the top left bolt with hole.
The residual oil in the valley will be right up to the hole in the bolt, any additional oil will cause oil to flow out the hole in the 2 top bolts.
Those 2 top bolts are what? 3/8 of an inch below those 2 huge 1 inch holes from the valley into the timing cover.
It takes a very small amount of oil puking down from the heads/rockers to bring the valley oil level up to those huge holes, never mind any splash from the vehicles motions.
Lack of oil usually results in heat, as in blue rockers or rocker balls/shafts.
Never seen blue, wear, stretch, - no heat on the timing chain, or gear.
As to the hole in the thrust plate, that I broke several drill bits trying, never made a hole.
Look at the broken thrust plate in the pix.
It fractured, it didn't bend, or distort, it broke like the cast iron sprocket, cuz it's case hardened or ? - hard, so drill away.
I always use the 4 bolts, one with hole in proper location, no lock-tite.
Good luck,
 
junkyardhero said:
on the thrust plate bolts, yeah. but no loctite on the cam bolt?


the FSM says thread locker on the cam, nothing on the thrust plate bolts. which i tend to give them a little drop of blue because of my paranoia tendencies.
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Not the manuals I use. The newest one I have in 1973. I use red Locktite on the cam bolt but I don't use an eccentric so the notched "washer" and bolt are new. I also have very paranoid tendencies.
 
Inertia said:
My $0.02.
I think you will find there is a small pocket behind the top left bolt with hole.
The residual oil in the valley will be right up to the hole in the bolt, any additional oil will cause oil to flow out the hole in the 2 top bolts.
Those 2 top bolts are what? 3/8 of an inch below those 2 huge 1 inch holes from the valley into the timing cover.
It takes a very small amount of oil puking down from the heads/rockers to bring the valley oil level up to those huge holes, never mind any splash from the vehicles motions.
Lack of oil usually results in heat, as in blue rockers or rocker balls/shafts.
Never seen blue, wear, stretch, - no heat on the timing chain, or gear.
As to the hole in the thrust plate, that I broke several drill bits trying, never made a hole.
Look at the broken thrust plate in the pix.
It fractured, it didn't bend, or distort, it broke like the cast iron sprocket, cuz it's case hardened or ? - hard, so drill away.
I always use the 4 bolts, one with hole in proper location, no lock-tite.
Good luck,
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Seriously? I've drilled so many I've lost count.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Seriously? I've drilled so many I've lost count.
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This comes up at least every other month or so.

As I dutifully say damn near every time, all those drip tabs, bolts with holes in them and all that other junk were used because they were the cheapest way to try and get to the end of the warranty.

Drilling a hole in the plate is the most efficient, inexpensive way to get full pressure oil onto the timing set.

It’s even more critical with a gear drive.
 
66fs said:
Not the manuals I use. The newest one I have in 1973. I use red Locktite on the cam bolt but I don't use an eccentric so the notched "washer" and bolt are new. I also have very paranoid tendencies.
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i'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing but it's lost in translation
 
Every small block I took apart had only 3 bolts on the cam plate. The oil dripper has a finger that goes in the 4th hole with no bolt.
Screenshot_20241003_195648_Google.jpg
 
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Millions of engines used a thrust plate for cam retention & Loctite was not used on the bolts [ before LT was invented ]. And they had no problems.....
 
Didn't see the engine yesterday, wife's birthday, but planning on it tonight.

Parts we have to fix it are:
- New/used thrust plate
- New/used cam washer and bolt
- New Timing cover and all gaskets/seal (FelPro)
- Timing set
- Degree wheel

Need:
1 bolt

I'm thinking the arrangement to go with in this case is to use the bolt w/hole in Upper/Passenger position, three bolts in other holes. No tab.

I will be looking into drilling the hole though.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
This comes up at least every other month or so.

As I dutifully say damn near every time, all those drip tabs, bolts with holes in them and all that other junk were used because they were the cheapest way to try and get to the end of the warranty.

Drilling a hole in the plate is the most efficient, inexpensive way to get full pressure oil onto the timing set.

It’s even more critical with a gear drive.
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Always searching for new info, I'm wondering what symptoms of lack of lubrication to the timing set is showing.
We've built the BBlks and Hemisback in the day, had a 340 Barracuda running 2/10s off the NHRA record.
Lotsa really stout street engines with UBER valve springs.
We also build, repair vehicles that are Daily Drivers, that rack up 10 - 15,000 miles a year, year after year, scrutinize, refresh them later in
life.
Our race engines, straight, or roundy-roundy very high output, low miles, no timing gear/chain issues.
Our street engines less high output in most cases, go 10s of thousands of miles for years, not a few races, and we've never seen an issue in the timing gear other than normal wear, or the plastic breaks off.
My mentor taught me bunchas stuff, he was our local track tech inspector, and represented his Province in the highly regarded Plymouth Challenge.
What were we missing, respectfully?
What was it you saw in wear or heat that we missed.
Thank-you .
 
Where did the cam bolt and cupped washer go? Did it back out ? Any evidence of that on the inside of the timing covers. My guess is the cam bolt backed out. Then bad things happened !
 
And the damage probably didn't stop inside the cover. As already mentioned, better check the valves and pistons.
 
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Inertia said:
Always searching for new info, I'm wondering what symptoms of lack of lubrication to the timing set is showing.
We've built the BBlks and Hemisback in the day, had a 340 Barracuda running 2/10s off the NHRA record.
Lotsa really stout street engines with UBER valve springs.
We also build, repair vehicles that are Daily Drivers, that rack up 10 - 15,000 miles a year, year after year, scrutinize, refresh them later in
life.
Our race engines, straight, or roundy-roundy very high output, low miles, no timing gear/chain issues.
Our street engines less high output in most cases, go 10s of thousands of miles for years, not a few races, and we've never seen an issue in the timing gear other than normal wear, or the plastic breaks off.
My mentor taught me bunchas stuff, he was our local track tech inspector, and represented his Province in the highly regarded Plymouth Challenge.
What were we missing, respectfully?
What was it you saw in wear or heat that we missed.
Thank-you .
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I’ve seen gear drives get trashed from lack of oil.

Timing chain wear is mostly from not getting enough oil on the timing set.

And this is on not just Chrysler stuff. GM and Ford have the issue too.

There is a big difference between a production car driven by the general public and a race engine. Or even a street/strip deal.

Using the junk the factory used that didn’t work, or works well enough to get past warranty is not what I call race engine preparation.

And I can say that once you start getting in the low 12’s you are entering the territory of performance engine stuff, although I make no distinction between that and a race engine when it comes to simple modifications like drilling a hole.

To convince me otherwise you’d have to tell me how a .040 hole in the oiling system is detrimental to anything.

One could argue the hole does nothing nor does it hurt anything. But full pressure oil on the timing set, regardless of if it’s a timing chain or gear drive.

And I almost forgot. Back in the day we had issues with the fuel pump eccentric wearing abnormally when getting the rpm above 6500 or so.

The hole stopped it.

You could also argue oils are better today but I’d say the hole still has benefits that the crap Chrysler used does not.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ve seen gear drives get trashed from lack of oil.

Timing chain wear is mostly from not getting enough oil on the timing set.

And this is on not just Chrysler stuff. GM and Ford have the issue too.

There is a big difference between a production car driven by the general public and a race engine. Or even a street/strip deal.

Using the junk the factory used that didn’t work, or works well enough to get past warranty is not what I call race engine preparation.

And I can say that once you start getting in the low 12’s you are entering the territory of performance engine stuff, although I make no distinction between that and a race engine when it comes to simple modifications like drilling a hole.

To convince me otherwise you’d have to tell me how a .040 hole in the oiling system is detrimental to anything.

One could argue the hole does nothing nor does it hurt anything. But full pressure oil on the timing set, regardless of if it’s a timing chain or gear drive.

And I almost forgot. Back in the day we had issues with the fuel pump eccentric wearing abnormally when getting the rpm above 6500 or so.

The hole stopped it.

You could also argue oils are better today but I’d say the hole still has benefits that the crap Chrysler used does not.
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Thank-you.
Lotsa opinions, lotsa minutiae, I have many "strange" things I do in engine prep.
What h/p they add individually, prob unmeasurable, but together, they seem to get the job done.
Next time I build a gear-drive, 6000+ rpm engine, I'ma gonna drill a hole,.
Thnx again, sincerely, luv looking at things from all angles.
Cheers.
 
crackedback said:
Depending on the RPM that let loose, I'd be concerned with valve to piston issues.
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RustyRatRod said:
I never have understood why people are so scared to drill a .040" hole through the thrust plate right in line with the main oil galley so the timing chain gets pressurized oil. It's just so easy to do and costs nothing.
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Came to post about the valve to piston concerns.

Drilling a hole? Brilliant. Done. Thank you!
 
The head style of that bolt is a clue that means it's a self locking bolt, no washer allowed. Post a pic of bottom of bolt head to show the relief groove below the head, which helps it to clench the bolt & lock it. At least when they are new.
with older bolts I might also use loctite to be extra sure as they are 50ish years old. And they're hard, too , and probably get brittle, so red loctite & less torque may be called for.
I am doing the .040 hole, which is the size of many oil feed jets on turbos, so not much of a pressure bleedoff.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ve seen gear drives get trashed from lack of oil.

Timing chain wear is mostly from not getting enough oil on the timing set.

And this is on not just Chrysler stuff. GM and Ford have the issue too.

There is a big difference between a production car driven by the general public and a race engine. Or even a street/strip deal.

Using the junk the factory used that didn’t work, or works well enough to get past warranty is not what I call race engine preparation.

And I can say that once you start getting in the low 12’s you are entering the territory of performance engine stuff, although I make no distinction between that and a race engine when it comes to simple modifications like drilling a hole.

To convince me otherwise you’d have to tell me how a .040 hole in the oiling system is detrimental to anything.

One could argue the hole does nothing nor does it hurt anything. But full pressure oil on the timing set, regardless of if it’s a timing chain or gear drive.

And I almost forgot. Back in the day we had issues with the fuel pump eccentric wearing abnormally when getting the rpm above 6500 or so.

The hole stopped it.

You could also argue oils are better today but I’d say the hole still has benefits that the crap Chrysler used does not.
Click to expand...

In reality, the bolt with the hole works OK. We’ve got a 273 with 300,000 miles on it and still runs better than most with 10,000 miles. Built in the 70’s with the bolt with the hole and a Direct Connection double roller timing chain. Car lived from FL to SD. And from the stories was never babied, cruised at 100 mph all day long, and has been up to 140 mph. The 273 is slated to come out this winter, but only to be replaced with either a 330 Desoto hemi or a 340. I am interested to take it apart and see just what the wear looks like after 45 years and 300,000 miles.
 
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