Front "China wall" sealing issue on SBM

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You mean the roll pins that go into the block? Yes those are long gone. I'll check again when I get around to taking it apart but IIRC I had to remove those anyway as they were interfering with the intake manifold seating down onto the heads; intake manifold mating faces were milled because it sat too high for the bolts to thread in.
Are you certain it is the china rail leaking? When installing the machined intake, verify the fit before torquing with a feeler gauge. Any gap should be identical top and bottom. The coolant can still seal because of the printed sealant or embossing, but still seep out just above the head gasket. Could the head gasket be leaking slightly in that thin area by the pushrods?
 
Using cork with RTV is not a good idea. The RTV will act as a lubricant and the cork will slide out from under the intake as you torque it down. If you use anything use something like 3M yellow weatherstrip adhesive and glue the cork to the block with nothing on top of the cork. You'll also want to put a small dab of RTV in each corner where the heads meet the ends of the china walls.
Cat had a green/yellow gasket adhesive similar to the yellow weatherstrip adhesive. Brush on the gaskt and the metal and let sit for a couple of minutes. You better get the positioning correct because at contact it stuck like **** to a diaper. Used a lot on final drive covers and oil pans. This was before the 3M buffing disks. What a beggar to get clean with a scraper. Final drive covers had a few dowels and required puller bolts to get them off.
 
Here is a trick. Use the black RTV Gasket Maker to assemble.

No leaks

To get it apart: spray brake parts cleaner around all the RTV sealed areas. Keep it wet with brake parts cleaner for 1/2 hour or longer as you see fit.

The Brake Parts Cleaner breaks down the RTV and it easily comes apart. Whether it be valve covers, oil pan, intake manifold, fuel pump, water pump it's all the same.

No leaks, proper prep, no oil films, then use RTV Black.

☆☆☆☆☆
 
I just slip a long thin blade knife though it to break the seal. Never had an issue popping an intake off after doing that
 
Here is a trick. Use the black RTV Gasket Maker to assemble.

No leaks

To get it apart: spray brake parts cleaner around all the RTV sealed areas. Keep it wet with brake parts cleaner for 1/2 hour or longer as you see fit.

The Brake Parts Cleaner breaks down the RTV and it easily comes apart. Whether it be valve covers, oil pan, intake manifold, fuel pump, water pump it's all the same.

No leaks, proper prep, no oil films, then use RTV Black.

☆☆☆☆☆
I was referring to contact cements or adhesives. RTVs are a piece of cake. Use contact cement on both sides of an Al intake manifold and you may damage crap out of it trying to get it off.
Cat final drive housings take a beating supporting the rear of the track frames. The High Drives should take some beating off the final drives, but that is a rough application.
 
I would contact the manufacturer and show them what's up. With that design you aren't the only one with the issue. Possibly they caught the issue and made a production change to correct it. You could have bought a early manifold.

416stroker said he contacted Edelbrock when he figured out the issue, they said they'd pass it on to their engineers and mold makers but who's to say they actually did it. If they did I don't know if my manifold was made before or after the fix as I bought it used off schmeeBay, likely before since I'm having the issue...

Are you certain it is the china rail leaking? When installing the machined intake, verify the fit before torquing with a feeler gauge. Any gap should be identical top and bottom. The coolant can still seal because of the printed sealant or embossing, but still seep out just above the head gasket. Could the head gasket be leaking slightly in that thin area by the pushrods?

I'm about 95% certain. I've looked up at it from underneath with a good flashlight and the oil is coming from that corner interface between head, intake and block. The intake faces were also milled and the edges were all left sharp so they "dig" nicely into the intake gaskets when the bolts are torqued down. Last time I resealed it that corner stayed dry for a few drives then came back; if it was the head gasket the leak would still have been there. Not to mention I'm running custom-thickness Cometics with head studs, damn things better not leak! lol
 
416stroker said he contacted Edelbrock when he figured out the issue, they said they'd pass it on to their engineers and mold makers but who's to say they actually did it. If they did I don't know if my manifold was made before or after the fix as I bought it used off schmeeBay, likely before since I'm having the issue...



I'm about 95% certain. I've looked up at it from underneath with a good flashlight and the oil is coming from that corner interface between head, intake and block. The intake faces were also milled and the edges were all left sharp so they "dig" nicely into the intake gaskets when the bolts are torqued down. Last time I resealed it that corner stayed dry for a few drives then came back; if it was the head gasket the leak would still have been there. Not to mention I'm running custom-thickness Cometics with head studs, damn things better not leak! lol
Gotta go into Sherlock Holmes mode. Any leak will leave a trace. That will be a thin wet track on the silicone or a gasket surface. That part of a gasket or the silicone will not stick well. Careful disassembly will let it show.
 
Finally got around to pulling the intake manifold, lo and behold it is like my last guess was... Sealing surface of the intake on the bottom doesn't extend back far enough to interface with the block. You can see in the pic how the silicone isn't squished down in the corner like it should be. Looks like I'll have to build up that area myself with some JB-Weld. I guess I got an "early" casting RPM intake.

20231112_150428.jpg
 
Finally got around to pulling the intake manifold, lo and behold it is like my last guess was... Sealing surface of the intake on the bottom doesn't extend back far enough to interface with the block. You can see in the pic how the silicone isn't squished down in the corner like it should be. Looks like I'll have to build up that area myself with some JB-Weld. I guess I got an "early" casting RPM intake.

View attachment 1716165912
Clean the China wall well and make sure the locating pins are removed. Aluminum intakes don't have holes for the pins.
 
you need a lot mare sealant in the corners and not putting sealant on both sides of the gasket around the water passages is asking for trouble, including the blank ones at the beack. Use ultra grey sealant
 
Finally got around to pulling the intake manifold, lo and behold it is like my last guess was... Sealing surface of the intake on the bottom doesn't extend back far enough to interface with the block. You can see in the pic how the silicone isn't squished down in the corner like it should be. Looks like I'll have to build up that area myself with some JB-Weld. I guess I got an "early" casting RPM intake.

View attachment 1716165912
You should always dry fit the intake to make sure it fits properly before you add sealer. The gap on the China wall will let you know how much sealer you may need.
 
I should have used a thicker bead of sealer and I'll be sure to do that next time it goes on but in that corner it wouldn't have helped much even if it was 1/2" tall; all the sealant would have done was go up into the open area on the underside of the manifold. The bottom sealing surface on the front edge of the intake ends pretty much where the back edge of first bolt hole is but it needs to extend back farther by about 1/2-1".

Take a look at these pics, first one is the bottom of an RPM like the one I'm running. Second is a Magnum Air-Gap; notice how the circled corner has more area filled in. Third pic shows the area that needs to be built up like on the Magnum manifold so it seals properly. Note I'm running a 5.9L Magnum block with LA-based Edelbrock heads.

edel RPM from site.jpg


Magnum Air-Gap from site.jpg


intake 002 - Copy (2).jpg
 
I've found that Honda Bond works well when RTV seems to not seal as I'd like it to.
 
@MopaR&D if you were closer I’d weld that junk up and machine it flat for you in a heartbeat. Shouldn’t be too terribly hard for a welder/machine shop near you to fill that area in and smooth it out.
 
@MopaR&D if you were closer I’d weld that junk up and machine it flat for you in a heartbeat. Shouldn’t be too terribly hard for a welder/machine shop near you to fill that area in and smooth it out.

I could bring it in to work and weld it there... Or just use JB-Weld lol. I generally don't like using that stuff but I'm really not worried about it.
 
I’d JB weld that up also. It’s at least worth a try. Give the aluminum some “tooth” and get it very clean. Make sure it is captured when the intake is bolted down and fkn send it!
 
I could bring it in to work and weld it there... Or just use JB-Weld lol. I generally don't like using that stuff but I'm really not worried about it.
Low stress area, so I would JB Weld it. Cleaning the base metal is the important step. DV shows building up port floors with epoxy. He drills a few holes right through and flares it so there is a positive lock on top of the chemical bond. Sure do not want that breaking loose and heading through the intake valve. That area has no fluctuating air flows to dislodge it, just vibrations and expansion and contraction. For what is involved the epoxy will function well as long as the base metal is clean. When you clean it, be ready to apply the epoxy right away. Aluminium gets surface oxidation virtually immediately that restricts adhesion. Again, a low stress area so not as much a problem.
 
Low stress area, so I would JB Weld it. Cleaning the base metal is the important step. DV shows building up port floors with epoxy. He drills a few holes right through and flares it so there is a positive lock on top of the chemical bond. Sure do not want that breaking loose and heading through the intake valve. That area has no fluctuating air flows to dislodge it, just vibrations and expansion and contraction. For what is involved the epoxy will function well as long as the base metal is clean. When you clean it, be ready to apply the epoxy right away. Aluminium gets surface oxidation virtually immediately that restricts adhesion. Again, a low stress area so not as much a problem.

I think the only way I'd be able to get the existing oxidation layer off is with acid which seems like overkill. I'm just going to spray down the whole thing with Simple Green and give it a good blast with my garden hose nozzle, repeat a few times, carefully spray the spot with brake cleaner (top side of manifold is painted) then dry it with compressed air. I'm going to build up a decent-sized glob of JB then file it down flush with the sealing surface, I figure if it withstands that without coming off it should hold up while on the engine.

@74Scooter I think Right Stuff is what I used last time, it almost worked too well lol... It was a bear getting the manifold to release especially toward the rear of the engine, I'm not looking forward to scraping all the residual stuff off. I might go back to Permatex Ultra Black tbh, never had an issue with that sealing except on this engine which isn't really the fault of the sealant itself anyway.
 
I think the only way I'd be able to get the existing oxidation layer off is with acid which seems like overkill. I'm just going to spray down the whole thing with Simple Green and give it a good blast with my garden hose nozzle, repeat a few times, carefully spray the spot with brake cleaner (top side of manifold is painted) then dry it with compressed air. I'm going to build up a decent-sized glob of JB then file it down flush with the sealing surface, I figure if it withstands that without coming off it should hold up while on the engine.

@74Scooter I think Right Stuff is what I used last time, it almost worked too well lol... It was a bear getting the manifold to release especially toward the rear of the engine, I'm not looking forward to scraping all the residual stuff off. I might go back to Permatex Ultra Black tbh, never had an issue with that sealing except on this engine which isn't really the fault of the sealant itself anyway.
I feel ya.. china rail seeping oil is my bane so I use Right Stuff. Usually once you get one corner moving it'll release. Razer blade followed by a wire brush usually does a good cleanup. Ultra black will likely be fine as well.. just be sure to measure the gap and get a good size bead in there. If you don't see a bit squish out all the way around you likely did not use enough. After i dropped the manifold on I forced a bit more into the crack at the front as I did not get the amount of "squish" I wanted.

GL!:thumbsup:
 
I feel ya.. china rail seeping oil is my bane so I use Right Stuff. Usually once you get one corner moving it'll release. Razer blade followed by a wire brush usually does a good cleanup. Ultra black will likely be fine as well.. just be sure to measure the gap and get a good size bead in there. If you don't see a bit squish out all the way around you likely did not use enough. After i dropped the manifold on I forced a bit more into the crack at the front as I did not get the amount of "squish" I wanted.

GL!:thumbsup:

Maybe I'll use it again, lol I don't know. When I pulled this intake I got 3 corners loose but had to really pull and twist to get it to release the last corner, felt like it was glued in there. I was being paranoid about getting any dirt in the engine too maybe that's why it seemed more difficult, it's been a few years (and about 6,000 miles) since I've been in this engine and there was some junk I had to clean off which always irritates me. Finally said f*** it and just stuck my fingers in the intake ports and twisted it up from the side of the car and got it out. Have I mentioned I can't stand working on dirty engines? LOL
 
I think the only way I'd be able to get the existing oxidation layer off is with acid which seems like overkill. I'm just going to spray down the whole thing with Simple Green and give it a good blast with my garden hose nozzle, repeat a few times, carefully spray the spot with brake cleaner (top side of manifold is painted) then dry it with compressed air. I'm going to build up a decent-sized glob of JB then file it down flush with the sealing surface, I figure if it withstands that without coming off it should hold up while on the engine.

@74Scooter I think Right Stuff is what I used last time, it almost worked too well lol... It was a bear getting the manifold to release especially toward the rear of the engine, I'm not looking forward to scraping all the residual stuff off. I might go back to Permatex Ultra Black tbh, never had an issue with that sealing except on this engine which isn't really the fault of the sealant itself anyway.
West System to clean and it treats the surface so it can not oxidize. Then the epoxy can adhere.
Paul Lamar on his rotaryeng.net site spoke of it.
 
Last time I used right stuff on an intake, I couldn't pry it off. Ended up removing the intake with a cherry picker as it lifted the front end. Yeah it's strong stuff
 
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