Guns, Dogs and Blades QnA

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Mattax said:
After looking at the 1777 Pattern in the Williamsburg exhibit, the one up for auction lacks the flared front on the second ramrod pipe.
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You seem much more knowledgeable on muskets than me. Are you at all familiar with Gillespie rifles? Made in North Carolina in the early 1800’s. My ancestors came to the colonies in the early 1700’s and ended up with their own company after the war.
 
doogievlg said:
You seem much more knowledgeable on muskets than me. Are you at all familiar with Gillespie rifles? Made in North Carolina in the early 1800’s. My ancestors came to the colonies in the early 1700’s and ended up with their own company after the war.
Click to expand...

Interesting

Did they come into the Colonies directly in the Carolinas or from elsewhere?

Most of the "family trees" of smiths I've read on have been Germans through the Penn Colony then moving west and south as apprentices were spun off
 
I'll take back what I posted about the lock of the musket up for auction. Some of its 1777 pattern and some is not. If someone was really interested, it would be worth studying the parts to figure out if its old repairs or something more recently done.
 
Mattax said:
I have not and would like to.
Need to get it on my radar to make sure it happens. It's both exhibits and sales?

"To Arm Against an Enemy" is relatively new. My understanding was it would consist of 3 or 4 special exhibits. Not sure if that happened. I was there 2019.
Here's a much more complete catalog
[/URL]
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I have always had a pedestrian like interest in civil/revolutionary war equipment and have flirted a time or two with starting down the reenactment path. In the end knowing my personality, I decided it would become a black hole for money worse than a bass boat. And I would end up loosing huge blocks of time in the summer. So now I just go watch the reenactment events and hit the museums! Safer for me, my marriage, and my wallet.
 
WV64Signet said:
Interesting

Did they come into the Colonies directly in the Carolinas or from elsewhere?

Most of the "family trees" of smiths I've read on have been Germans through the Penn Colony then moving west and south as apprentices were spun off
Click to expand...

They came from Ireland and the first records I have seen are from around 1720 near Lancaster PA and north east Maryland. From there they went to Virginia then a group split and went down to North Carolina after the war.
 
Sublime one said:
I have always had a pedestrian like interest in civil/revolutionary war equipment and have flirted a time or two with starting down the reenactment path. In the end knowing my personality, I decided it would become a black hole for money worse than a bass boat. And I would end up loosing huge blocks of time in the summer. So now I just go watch the reenactment events and hit the museums! Safer for me, my marriage, and my wallet.
Click to expand...

LoL.

Been there

Did I mention my weakness for hats?

Here's a sample

20230323_085546.jpg
 
doogievlg said:
They came from Ireland and the first records I have seen are from around 1720 near Lancaster PA and north east Maryland. From there they went to Virginia then a group split and went down to North Carolina after the war.
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Awesome. Yes, there's a really good reference book that follows the style and features of musket/rifle design. Title escapes me right now. I'll need to go find it again.
 
WV64Signet said:
Awesome. Yes, there's a really good reference book that follows the style and features of musket/rifle design. Title escapes me right now. I'll need to go find it again.
Click to expand...

I have the book. Something along the lines of “Gillespie Gun Makers of North Carolina”.
I just have not seen any other references to them. I’d love to find an actual rifle and give it to my dad but I have a feeling that may be impossible. Doesn’t seem like they made a lot of them and I would be shocked if any were still around.
 
doogievlg said:
I have the book. Something along the lines of “Gillespie Gun Makers of North Carolina”.
I just have not seen any other references to them. I’d love to find an actual rifle and give it to my dad but I have a feeling that may be impossible. Doesn’t seem like they made a lot of them and I would be shocked if any were still around.
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I saw that reference book...

Reproductions mostly.... many of the designs were fairly short-lived as bulk part production became popular and the craftsmanship was more the exception
 
WV64Signet said:
I saw that reference book...

Reproductions mostly.... many of the designs were fairly short-lived as bulk part production became popular and the craftsmanship was more the exception
Click to expand...

I shot an email to the author who was making reproduction trigger guards and butt plates. I’m sure I could throw something together to make a replica. Maybe I’ll put a hold on new AR and pistol purchases and build a replica to hunt deer with this fall.
 
doogievlg said:
You seem much more knowledgeable on muskets than me. Are you at all familiar with Gillespie rifles? Made in North Carolina in the early 1800’s. My ancestors came to the colonies in the early 1700’s and ended up with their own company after the war.
Click to expand...
Sorry I missed your post last night.
I am not familiar with them in particular.
My knowledge tapers off after 1783 and also when it comes to non-military rifles (which is most of flintlock era rifles).

In addition to the book you mention, there are three Gillespie rifles shown on the American Long Rifle forum. Two have detailed explanaitons of their characteristics.

Southern Long Arms

Southern Long Arms
americanlongrifles.org
mgfulllength.jpg


In general I don't think you'll find original long rifles before the 1790s with the deep curvature in the butt.
Compare with 'Jacob Bower's rifle made in the 1760s, probably by George Schroyer in Reading, Pa.
1679590313675.png

Works – "To Arm against an Enemy": Weapons of the Revolution – Exhibitions – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation

eMuseum is a powerful web publishing toolkit that integrates seamlessly with TMS to bring dynamic collection content and images to your website, intranet, and kiosks.
emuseum.history.org emuseum.history.org

WV64Signet's question about the family migration story is a good one. There was a strong connection between the Southern Appalachian region through the Shenendoah to the Lancaster Pennsylvania area and on to Philadelphia. A lot of commerce (cattle for example) and migration along the Great Wagon Road as it was sometimes called. So yes they could have moved inland the tidewater, or had connections from much further north.
Great_PHL_Wagon_Road.jpg


Things to look into for the Gillespie rifles might be their sources of parts and materials. It took a pretty big investment to get into making barrels and locks. To get all the parts made under one roof required tremendous knowledge, equipment and raw material. As the description indicates a water powered mill, that suggests to me they were running a trip hammer or some other equipment that needed serious power.

Besides Colonial Williamsburg, I'm not sure of where else you could go to see barrels forged and rifled the way they were in the 18th century. If you go, check ahead to find out what they are working on. They don't have a begining to end in one day demonstration, but I do beleive they have a schedule or some way to follow the processes from raw materials to finished rifle.
 
If your think you may want to build a rifle from a kit or parts, dig through this guy's threads on the mzzle loading forum.
I bookmarked this one in case I ever decide correcting a Pedersoli Short Land would be a a good evening project..
..for a a few years worth of evenings.

New Reworking a Pedersoli Brown Bess

Hi, There is a current thread asking about what to do to refurbish a Pedersoli Brown Bess musket to make the gun more historically correct. After contributing to that discussion, I thought I would add this separate thread that describes how I go about historically upgrading those guns. I will...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com
 
Sublime one said:
I have always had a pedestrian like interest in civil/revolutionary war equipment and have flirted a time or two with starting down the reenactment path. In the end knowing my personality, I decided it would become a black hole for money worse than a bass boat. And I would end up loosing huge blocks of time in the summer. So now I just go watch the reenactment events and hit the museums! Safer for me, my marriage, and my wallet.
Click to expand...
Not sure what would be more expensive, chasing down reproductions for re-encting or originals for collecting. For the Colonial period through the American Revolution, it might be collecting originals....:eek:
 
Mattax said:
If your think you may want to build a rifle from a kit or parts, dig through this guy's threads on the mzzle loading forum.
I bookmarked this one in case I ever decide correcting a Pedersoli Short Land would be a a good evening project..
..for a a few years worth of evenings.

New Reworking a Pedersoli Brown Bess

Hi, There is a current thread asking about what to do to refurbish a Pedersoli Brown Bess musket to make the gun more historically correct. After contributing to that discussion, I thought I would add this separate thread that describes how I go about historically upgrading those guns. I will...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com
Click to expand...

You would think that with what Perdesoli charges, they would be a bit more correct. I watched a video series on a gentleman reshaping one of their 63 Charlesville's. Quite a bit off the stock to get the nose correct.
 
WV64Signet said:
You would think that with what Perdesoli charges, they would be a bit more correct. I watched a video series on a gentleman reshaping one of their 63 Charlesville's. Quite a bit off the stock to get the nose correct.
Click to expand...
I confess to owning a Pedersoli Creedmoor in 45/70, weighs in at about a million pounds but the dang thing can shoot for sure! It is stunning.

696ABE77-14E0-4BEA-A69C-676D6BDEDF16.jpeg


CCDD8074-AC2F-4D14-8824-C724573E9100.jpeg
 
Sublime one said:
I confess to owning a Pedersoli Creedmoor in 45/70, weighs in at about a million pounds but the dang thing can shoot for sure! It is stunning.

View attachment 1716067606

View attachment 1716067607
Click to expand...

It's amazing how much lighter the original pieces are. Don't get me wrong, they're producing the nicest quality reproductions that are out there...and if you aren't stitch-counting, they're great :thumbsup: I sold a Harper's Ferry rifle (not a Perdesoli)...only one I've ever gotten rid of. It was such a departure from the correct build that it bothered me.
 
Mattax said:
Sorry I missed your post last night.
I am not familiar with them in particular.
My knowledge tapers off after 1783 and also when it comes to non-military rifles (which is most of flintlock era rifles).

In addition to the book you mention, there are three Gillespie rifles shown on the American Long Rifle forum. Two have detailed explanaitons of their characteristics.
[/URL]
View attachment 1716067595

In general I don't think you'll find original long rifles before the 1790s with the deep curvature in the butt.
Compare with 'Jacob Bower's rifle made in the 1760s, probably by George Schroyer in Reading, Pa.
View attachment 1716067594
[/URL]

WV64Signet's question about the family migration story is a good one. There was a strong connection between the Southern Appalachian region through the Shenendoah to the Lancaster Pennsylvania area and on to Philadelphia. A lot of commerce (cattle for example) and migration along the Great Wagon Road as it was sometimes called. So yes they could have moved inland the tidewater, or had connections from much further north.
View attachment 1716067596

Things to look into for the Gillespie rifles might be their sources of parts and materials. It took a pretty big investment to get into making barrels and locks. To get all the parts made under one roof required tremendous knowledge, equipment and raw material. As the description indicates a water powered mill, that suggests to me they were running a trip hammer or some other equipment that needed serious power.

Besides Colonial Williamsburg, I'm not sure of where else you could go to see barrels forged and rifled the way they were in the 18th century. If you go, check ahead to find out what they are working on. They don't have a begining to end in one day demonstration, but I do beleive they have a schedule or some way to follow the processes from raw materials to finished rifle.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t get into making the barrels and other hard components. I don’t have the time nor the skill required for that. I would probably buy a replica Kentucky rifle and try to make modifications to the stock. It doesn’t need to be a great match to satisfy this itch.

As far as the family goes, there are a few church’s in PA and Maryland that are still holding services that my ancestors attended. I’d love to visit them one day. I believe the NC gun makers started with a distant uncle of mine and my direct lineage went from VA into Kentucky and never made it down to North Carolina. It’s very humbling to know my family was here for the birth of this nation. My moms side is much more recent though, they came over from Italy and Germany before WW2 kicked off.
 
WV64Signet said:
It's amazing how much lighter the original pieces are. Don't get me wrong, they're producing the nicest quality reproductions that are out there...and if you aren't stitch-counting, they're great :thumbsup: I sold a Harper's Ferry rifle (not a Perdesoli)...only one I've ever gotten rid of. It was such a departure from the correct build that it bothered me.
Click to expand...
I am not savvy enough to know if mine is fundamentally period correct but she can sure ring steel at 800 yards all day long!
 
WV64Signet said:
You would think that with what Perdesoli charges, they would be a bit more correct. I watched a video series on a gentleman reshaping one of their 63 Charlesville's. Quite a bit off the stock to get the nose correct.
Click to expand...
I agree, and that the Charlesville repros are worse. I'll have to look for that video. I've always wondered how they managed to make it so heavy and poorly balanced. And then the whole thing with repro bayonettes for them is a mess too.
We (my boss) bought a repro French Marine musket with year end money - and that was pretty good - granted its almost a fusil in length. We also got a Long Land repro that way - might have been a rework by Kit Ravenshear.
 
Mattax said:
I agree, and that the Charlesville repros are worse. I'll have to look for that video. I've always wondered how they managed to make it so heavy and poorly balanced. And then the whole thing with repro bayonettes for them is a mess too.
We (my boss) bought a repro French Marine musket with year end money - and that was pretty good - granted its almost a fusil in length. We also got a Long Land repro that way - might have been a rework by Kit Ravenshear.
Click to expand...

Nicest one I have is a repro 1792 Contract Rifle that has the modifications requested by Meriwether Lewis for the Corps of Discovery.
 
doogievlg said:
I wouldn’t get into making the barrels and other hard components. I don’t have the time nor the skill required for that. I would probably buy a replica Kentucky rifle and try to make modifications to the stock. It doesn’t need to be a great match to satisfy this itch.

As far as the family goes, there are a few church’s in PA and Maryland that are still holding services that my ancestors attended. I’d love to visit them one day. I believe the NC gun makers started with a distant uncle of mine and my direct lineage went from VA into Kentucky and never made it down to North Carolina. It’s very humbling to know my family was here for the birth of this nation. My moms side is much more recent though, they came over from Italy and Germany before WW2 kicked off.
Click to expand...
A wide variety of quality and styles if one is just looking for a 'Kentucky rifle'. On the cheaper end is stuff like a CVA Hawkins type rifle.
 
PS. I wsan't suggesting buying a rifle at Colonial Williamsburg. Just to go, see, and learn how they make one.
 
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