hard or soft copper line for a valley oil gallery bypass line?

[Newbomb Turk]

Sorry I forgot to finish a previous post to Rapid Robert. At the end I was starting to say that the crossover tube requires the angles of the drilled passages to be very specific for it to work. I never performed this because imho it is not diy friendly.
The crossover mod had been misunderstood to the point that it is just a matter of hooking up any old tube and connect it to the other galley. Not so. The angles of the fitting are very important. It should also be mentioned that the originator of the crossover tube is none other than famed Bob Mullen a Chrysler engineer and Bob Glidden. AFAIK this mod was developed for the Mullen designed W2 pro stock motor that Glidden drove. The other thing if my memory serves is that the tube is only one part of the mod.
The number one main is reverse fed from the drivers side galley. This reduced velocity
In the passenger side galley because you don’t have all the oil at number one main
Trying to feed 8 lifter bores on the drivers side. I always viewed tubing the block as easier for the diy person to perform.

Right. Like I said why is any oil going to the drivers side unless you run hydraulic lifters or pushrod oil?

The answer is there is no reason to. And as I said, there are far better ways to get oil to the lifters or pushrods than that stupid crossover regardless of the angles it’s fitted at.

 

[Duane]

Think it through. If you have 80 PSI at one end of a pipe (oil gallery in this example) and lets say 70 PSI at the other end of the pipe then you can understand that somewhere in that length of pipe there will be pressure but no flow. And the point of no flow can move back and forth in the pipe as the different leaks off of the pipe come and go.

Of course, if you have full groove mains then some oil is always going out to the rods but even then the leak at the bearing will be more when the the oil holes are lined up in the crank and block.

So just sticking an extra feed line in the system isn't the answer.

Thinking about it...if I were to do something like that when I tubed the block I would close of the ends of the pipe where they meet in the middle. Then you'd be feeding 2 mains from one feed and 3 from the other.

So no contradiction at all. You can have pressure and no flow. It happens in fuel systems all the time. Well, not as much any more because fuel systems have gotten better. But I still see it every now and then.

These oiling systems are simple hydraulics. System pressures vary a bit, say from what the gauge says and what the rockers and shafts see.

When I bought my first W2 engine the oiling system (for a wet sump) was sorted out. After a year I took it down for freshening and upgrades. And everyone to a man except me wanted to change it. That required removing some plugs blocking the feed from the lifter gallery. Once those came out, I couldn't keep a rod bearing in it to save my ***. Then I hurt the crank and when I did that it got worse because no one would cross drill it. Eventually I did cross drill it myself and I put the restrictors back in where they went. I NEVER hurt another bearing, even when losing focus ad shifting at 9k rather than 8500.

Like porting heads, you have to know where the oil is going and WHY it's going there. If you don't, it's a crap shoot on bearing survival.

To sum it up, the cross over has its place but its not some secret squirrel **** voodoo magic. It's pure hydraulics. And to that end, IMO guys need to spend way more time on the pickup side of the pump and not the other stuff. The biggest restriction in the oiling system is the suction side of the pump, not on the pressure side. Get the inlet to the pump as big as you can, use a rear sump pan, full groove bearings, stop the leaks at the lifters and you can shift at 9k plus and not hurt a bearing. If you don't' do the former but add the crossover you didn't fix anything.

There will still be flow because you have 3-4
Intersecting 5/16 inch bearing feed holes in the pipe.
How are you not getting that

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Drivers side or passenger side.

If you are going to pushrod oil (don’t know why anyone would run hydraulic lifters in a “race” engine) then you have to get some oil to the drivers side lifters.

Again there are better ways to do it than the highly worshipped, useless crossover.

 

[Duane]

Right. Like I said why is any oil going to the drivers side unless you run hydraulic lifters or pushrod oil?

The answer is there is no reason to. And as I said, there are far better ways to get oil to the lifters or pushrods than that stupid crossover regardless of the angles it’s fitted at.

The reason is to reverse feed number one main. The tube is only one part of the modification. It is just a better distribution of the supply oil.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

There will still be flow because you have 3-4
Intersecting 5/16 inch bearing feed holes in the pipe.
How are you not getting that

Ok, **** it. Forget about all that you explain how the crossover does anything and don’t try to bullshit me that it slows the oil down because it damn sure doesn’t.

If the pressure is the same the oil velocity will be the same.

Next thing you’ll want me to think is an high volume pump will suck the pan dry. That’s as true as the crossover does anything.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

The reason is to reverse feed number one main. The tube is only one part of the modification. It is just a better distribution of the supply oil.

Reverse feed the number one main? Go look at a schematic and tell me how that works. The number one main is fed from the front hole of the drivers side gallery.

Just retarded nonsense. No one EVER blocks oil to the number one main BEFORE the main bearing. No one. And if they did, WTF did they gain?

 

[Duane]

Ok, **** it. Forget about all that you explain how the crossover does anything and don’t try to bullshit me that it slows the oil down because it damn sure doesn’t.

If the pressure is the same the oil velocity will be the same.

Next thing you’ll want me to think is an high volume pump will suck the pan dry. That’s as true as the crossover does anything.

Did you used to post on this forum under a different name. I seem to recall a similar member arguing the same way you are.

 

[Duane]

Reverse feed the number one main? Go look at a schematic and tell me how that works. The number one main is fed from the front hole of the drivers side gallery.

Just retarded nonsense. No one EVER blocks oil to the number one main BEFORE the main bearing. No one. And if they did, WTF did they gain?

If you have the book, then perhaps you need to read the entire explanation, and not just look at the picture. The proper implementation of the crossover is a two part mod. The passenger galley is plugged in front of the #1 feed hole. The pressurized oil that was sent to the drivers side now feeds number one main. Simple

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I just looked at the drawing again because I haven’t studied one in 30 years.

I had forgotten they were blocking oil off to the number one main and then rerouting it from the drivers side.

That was the first clue it was stupid. Then I bought the T/A block W2 headed engine and that guy PAID a hydraulics engineer to fix it. It had a crossover tube and the first thing he did was remove that.

Of course, my dad thought the crossover was the **** and wanted it back on. So one of his life long engineer friends came over and took a look at it. He said it was useless. And it is. In fact, he said the guy who developed it didn’t have a clue what the **** he was doing.

The upshot is getting the leaks stopped at the lifters and forcing the oil to the mains. Again the crossover doesn’t do that. It makes a bunch of work for no gains.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Did you used to post on this forum under a different name. I seem to recall a similar member arguing the same way you are.

Yup. And evidently you haven’t learned anything.

And yes I read the text. Again proof that it works. Never seen any.

So tell me you had a crossover and was shifting at 8500 and then you took it off and **** the bearings.

You’d argue with a stop sign.

I’m trying to keep the OP from wasting time and money with a useless modification.

 

[fishmens67]

I’m trying to keep the OP from wasting time and money with a useless modification.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

If you have the book, then perhaps you need to read the entire explanation, and not just look at the picture. The proper implementation of the crossover is a two part mod. The passenger galley is plugged in front of the #1 feed hole. The pressurized oil that was sent to the drivers side now feeds number one main. Simple

Right. I can do better than that with a set screw. The whole premise that the oil has too much velocity is the issue.

I have to lol that you think blocking the oil to the number one main and back feeding it by rerouting is comical at best.

Number one fix is sleeve the lifter bores and block the oil to the drivers side with a set screw under the number one main bearing. Does the same thing.

Or tube the passenger side and block the drivers side oil with a set screw under the number one main. Does the same thing.

Or tube both sides and block the oil off under the main cap. Does the same thing.

Or you can waste time and money with a crossover.

 

[Duane]

Yup. And evidently you haven’t learned anything.

And yes I read the text. Again proof that it works. Never seen any.

So tell me you had a crossover and was shifting at 8500 and then you took it off and **** the bearings.

You’d argue with a stop sign.

I’m trying to keep the OP from wasting time and money with a useless modification.

At this point in time I would not recommend it either. I have never done that mod myself
for reasons already explained. I have done the tubing of the galley because it’s easier to do imho. But I find the oil mods in the stroker small block book even better.
But reading what the crossover is supposed to accomplish, makes sense to me and is very similar to what Sanborn had success with as well. You have acknowledged that you are posting under a new name for reasons only you know. We have had this discussion previously, so I will bow out of this conversation as it has turned to insults.
I wish you all the best yellow rose.

 

[Duane]

Right. I can do better than that with a set screw. The whole premise that the oil has too much velocity is the issue.

I have to lol that you think blocking the oil to the number one main and back feeding it by rerouting is comical at best.

Number one fix is sleeve the lifter bores and block the oil to the drivers side with a set screw under the number one main bearing. Does the same thing.

Or tube the passenger side and block the drivers side oil with a set screw under the number one main. Does the same thing.

Or tube both sides and block the oil off under the main cap. Does the same thing.

Or you can waste time and money with a crossover.

Yes but much more expensive. And not too many shops have capability to bush a small block Mopar. Ryan J did mine.

 

[92b]

What I can’t understand is why you are hung up on this.

What you said was "Having opposing feeds in the same gallery can stop flow at some point in the pipe." When I read that statement it struck me. It's not how I understood how hydraulics work. Maybe my understanding is wrong and I can learn something from this. That's why I asked you why you believe this to be true and if you could point me to some evidence to support your claim. Some of the lessons I've learned best are the ones I had wrong.

I couldn’t care less what you think about anything except why you think a crossover works.

You have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Yes but much more expensive. And not too many shops have capability to bush a small block Mopar. Ryan J did mine.

Dude I gave three examples that actually work and you picked the most expensive one to ***** about.

I said tube one side and use a set screw to block the oil to the drivers side. It works and if you are careful you can do that with hand tools.

Or you can tube both sides. Why not? It actually forces the oil to the mains and that’s the end goal.

For the umpteenth time Sandborn was pushrod oiling so he had to get oil back to the drivers side so he used the crossover for that. I can think of better ways to do it. But again, the crossover tube doesn’t correct or fix what the OP is doing.

The crossover is redundant to get oil back to the drivers side. If you want to slow oil velocity drop the presser but it’s lunacy to think that the oil needs to be slowed down.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

What you said was "Having opposing feeds in the same gallery can stop flow at some point in the pipe." When I read that statement it struck me. It's not how I understood how hydraulics work. Maybe my understanding is wrong and I can learn something from this. That's why I asked you why you believe this to be true and if you could point me to some evidence to support your claim. Some of the lessons I've learned best are the ones I had wrong.

You have me mixed up with someone else.

Ok, it was explained to me in 1986 how that works. The guy is dead now and has been dead since 1995 so I can’t just ring him up and explain it to me in detail again.

The upshot was that two columns of fluid (most likely at different pressures) in the same pipe or tube is the side with higher pressure is fighting to overcome the lower pressure side. And it goes back and forth as the pressure changes.

Again, what do you gain adding another feed? You don’t. It’s not a feed or speed issue. That’s why big blocks smoke 5 and 6 get ate. You are feeding two shafts and 16 rockers and all those leaks off one main bearing.

The fix is to not feed the rockers off of one main or even two, especially when the cam has grooved mains.

If the OP is concerned with bearing life there are better things to do like stopping as many useless leaks as he can, forcing the oil to the mains and and working on the suction side of the pump.

The crossover does none of that.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

At this point in time I would not recommend it either. I have never done that mod myself
for reasons already explained. I have done the tubing of the galley because it’s easier to do imho. But I find the oil mods in the stroker small block book even better.
But reading what the crossover is supposed to accomplish, makes sense to me and is very similar to what Sanborn had success with as well. You have acknowledged that you are posting under a new name for reasons only you know. We have had this discussion previously, so I will bow out of this conversation as it has turned to insults.
I wish you all the best yellow rose.

Now I have to go dig out that book to refresh my memory

 

[Duane]

Do I gave three examples that actually work and you picked the most expensive one to ***** about.

I said tube one side and use a set screw to block the oil to the drivers side. It works and if you are careful you can do that with hand tools.

Or you can tube both sides. Why not? It actually forces the oil to the mains and that’s the end goal.

For the umpteenth time Sandborn was pushrod oiling so he had to get oil back to the drivers side so he used the crossover for that. I can think of better ways to do it. But again, the crossover tube doesn’t correct or fix what the OP is doing.

The crossover is redundant to get oil back to the drivers side. If you want to slow oil velocity drop the presser but it’s lunacy to think that the oil needs to be slowed down.

I am not bitching about anything. Rapid Robert based on lengthy discussions with others has decided to do the crossover tube.
It’s his choice. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am just saying that bushing the bores is expensive and difficult to source that machining. The tube and set screw works. I can vouch for that as I’ve done that. Another member on here McAllister is also very knowledgeable as well. Pick your poison. But there is no reason for every member on here to only listen to you.
That’s your *****.

 

[Duane]

Ok, it was explained to me in 1986 how that works. The guy is dead now and has been dead since 1995 so I can’t just ring him up and explain it to me in detail again.

The upshot was that two columns of fluid (most likely at different pressures) in the same pipe or tube is the side with higher pressure is fighting to overcome the lower pressure side. And it goes back and forth as the pressure changes.

Again, what do you gain adding another feed? You don’t. It’s not a feed or speed issue. That’s why big blocks smoke 5 and 6 get ate. You are feeding two shafts and 16 rockers and all those leaks off one main bearing.

The fix is to not feed the rockers off of one main or even two, especially when the cam has grooved mains.

If the OP is concerned with bearing life there are better things to do like stopping as many useless leaks as he can, forcing the oil to the mains and and working on the suction side of the pump.

The crossover does none of that.

The recommended mod in the stroker small block book completely abandons feeding the rockets from any bearing. I used brake lines
Drilled directly into the main galley to feed the rockers. Kind of like how Indy heads oil.
I installed the cam bearings out of position to completely block flow to the rockers. Then drilled new feed holes in the bottom of the cam bearings to oil those. Lifters are bushed.
The feed passage hole to both rocker shaft is .080 total to feed both sides.The majority of the oil in the galley only feeds mains and cam bearings. Every one the same. A small .030 hole in each lifter bore to feed the comp cams bushed axle shafts. I posted pics a couple years ago. I’ll see if I can find them.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I am not bitching about anything. Rapid Robert based on lengthy discussions with others has decided to do the crossover tube.
It’s his choice. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am just saying that bushing the bores is expensive and difficult to source that machining. The tube and set screw works. I can vouch for that as I’ve done that. Another member on here McAllister is also very knowledgeable as well. Pick your poison. But there is no reason for every member on here to only listen to you.
That’s your *****.

What ever. I’m saying there is no reason to do the crossover if you think it’s going to save bearings.

I pulled out the other book and looked through it. The only thing that I see that he says differently is to block the oil feed from the cam by clocking the cam bearings to block the feed holes.

That’s a great idea but I wouldn’t pick up the oil to feed the rockers from the main oil feed down the passenger side. I have been looking at doing that on my junk especially when I do the W2 engine. But I would get the oil to feed the rockers from the feed to the oil pressure gauge. Then it doesn’t come off the main feed but I haven’t had a chance to look at it close to see if it would work.

Saying that, my ***** about this whole thing is guys are doing a mod that doesn’t do a damn bit of good as far as bearing life is concerned.

I went back and read the OP. I asked him why he wanted to do the crossover. He said to slow the oil down so it is evident he is looking for bearing life. As I have said many times it doesn’t.

It’s one thing to do a modification if it serves a purpose. For the OP the crossover doesn’t do that.

As for the mod to not feed any rockers off a main feed I did that in 2000 or so. Each shaft was fed from a separate feed that didn’t come off the main feed and it helped a ton.

The engine I’m getting ready to do won’t get all the modifications I did back then but I want to at least stop feeding the rockers off the main oil feed.

The block is already tubed on the passenger side and the oil to the drivers side is blocked with a set screw.

That’s my *****. Guys doing the crossover for the wrong reasons.

 

[Duane]

What ever. I’m saying there is no reason to do the crossover if you think it’s going to save bearings.

I pulled out the other book and looked through it. The only thing that I see that he says differently is to block the oil feed from the cam by clocking the cam bearings to block the feed holes.

That’s a great idea but I wouldn’t pick up the oil to feed the rockers from the main oil feed down the passenger side. I have been looking at doing that on my junk especially when I do the W2 engine. But I would get the oil to feed the rockers from the feed to the oil pressure gauge. Then it doesn’t come off the main feed but I haven’t had a chance to look at it close to see if it would work.

Saying that, my ***** about this whole thing is guys are doing a mod that doesn’t do a damn bit of good as far as bearing life is concerned.

I went back and read the OP. I asked him why he wanted to do the crossover. He said to slow the oil down so it is evident he is looking for bearing life. As I have said many times it doesn’t.

It’s one thing to do a modification if it serves a purpose. For the OP the crossover doesn’t do that.

As for the mod to not feed any rockers off a main feed I did that in 2000 or so. Each shaft was fed from a separate feed that didn’t come off the main feed and it helped a ton.

The engine I’m getting ready to do won’t get all the modifications I did back then but I want to at least stop feeding the rockers off the main oil feed.

The block is already tubed on the passenger side and the oil to the drivers side is blocked with a set screw.

That’s my *****. Guys doing the crossover for the wrong reasons.

Even if you don’t buy into the velocity thing, looking back at My Sanborn notes, he ran his own version of a crossover stating specifically that it was to prevent failure of number one main bearing which sends all it oil to the drivers side oil galley. So that is something.

 

[Jadaharabi]

What ever. I’m saying there is no reason to do the crossover if you think it’s going to save bearings.

I pulled out the other book and looked through it. The only thing that I see that he says differently is to block the oil feed from the cam by clocking the cam bearings to block the feed holes.

That’s a great idea but I wouldn’t pick up the oil to feed the rockers from the main oil feed down the passenger side. I have been looking at doing that on my junk especially when I do the W2 engine. But I would get the oil to feed the rockers from the feed to the oil pressure gauge. Then it doesn’t come off the main feed but I haven’t had a chance to look at it close to see if it would work.

Saying that, my ***** about this whole thing is guys are doing a mod that doesn’t do a damn bit of good as far as bearing life is concerned.

I went back and read the OP. I asked him why he wanted to do the crossover. He said to slow the oil down so it is evident he is looking for bearing life. As I have said many times it doesn’t.

It’s one thing to do a modification if it serves a purpose. For the OP the crossover doesn’t do that.

As for the mod to not feed any rockers off a main feed I did that in 2000 or so. Each shaft was fed from a separate feed that didn’t come off the main feed and it helped a ton.

The engine I’m getting ready to do won’t get all the modifications I did back then but I want to at least stop feeding the rockers off the main oil feed.

The block is already tubed on the passenger side and the oil to the drivers side is blocked with a set screw.

That’s my *****. Guys doing the crossover for the wrong reasons.

Wow you sound just like yellow toes. Or yellow rose that is. He never had a good thing to say about the benefits of the cross over tube which was designed by Chrysler engineers.
Robert I use aluminum tubing or braided line.

My take on the oiling system crossover tube for the small block

This is a combination of my thoughts and ideas taken from the Guitar Jones oiling system modifications thread. If you have some input that would help along these lines and to clarify some of the thinking you're more than welcome to post but if you think that you just need to post negative...

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[92b]

The upshot was that two columns of fluid (most likely at different pressures) in the same pipe or tube is the side with higher pressure is fighting to overcome the lower pressure side. And it goes back and forth as the pressure changes.

In the scenario we are discussing, why would there be a different pressure on each end of the gallery?

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Wow you sound just like yellow toes. Or yellow rose that is. He never had a good thing to say about the benefits of the cross over tube which was designed by Chrysler engineers.
Robert I use aluminum tubing or braided line.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...em-crossover-tube-for-the-small-block.420831/

[/URL]

I say it doesn't do what they say it does. And it doesn't. If you are using it to put oil back to the lifters for pushrod oiling that's one thing. But saying it slows the oil down defies ALL logic.

So you tell me what the OP will gain if he wastes his time and money doing it.

I'll tell you I called in a late night favor last night to a guy who knows things. Without me going out to the shop and taking some measurements he did some rough calculations. His math says it doesn't slow the oil down. It can't. He and I were looking at the oiling schematic and he thought the whole thing was retarded.

If you are trying to get more oil to the bearings, and by blocking oil off where its not needed why is it going right back to where you just took oil from? That makes no sense.

To that end, the oiling going to the top end, especially with a roller cam that has a groove in the 2 and 4 cam bearings to get full time oil to the rockers is what is taking oil from the bearings is what's causing oil loss to the bearings, not some fantasy about oil velocity too high.

Just because Chrysler developed it doesn't make it right.

For the OP its a giant waste of time and money. Why people ignorantly defend this modification is beyond me.