Hard Starting After Warmed Up.....Arrrg

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Also, initial timing is way low. Should be up around 18-20 with the total limited to 34-36.
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Rob.. the motor is plain jane stock from what i know about it with the exception of the intake, carb, and headers.

If I block off the vacuum advance and set timing for idle at 12° , when I plug the advance line back in and read the total, the timing is over 40 at 2700-3000.

Am I missing something...???
 
YES you might be missing something, you need to check the mechanical advance with the vacuum advance line disconnected from both ends (distributor and carb); in this way your total mechanical advance + initial should be 34-36*. With the vacuum advance line connected to ported vacuum on the carb (only pulls vacuum when the throttle is open, not at idle) your total timing should be up around 50* or more at your 2700-3000 RPM point. If it doesn't change then your vacuum advance "can" might be shot. Some say you don't need it but on the street it will really help gas mileage and help your engine last longer by more completely burning the mixture at cruise thus reducing unburned fuel washing down your rings. So IMO it is pretty necessary.

12* of initial should be plenty for your stock-cammed 318 but you can experiment with bumping it up in small increments until it begins kicking back against the starter when you go to start it warm. I have a feeling RRR assumed you have an aftermarket cam but I could be wrong (stock 318 cams are really really tiny).
 
Cruzin said:
Rob.. the motor is plain jane stock from what i know about it with the exception of the intake, carb, and headers.

If I block off the vacuum advance and set timing for idle at 12° , when I plug the advance line back in and read the total, the timing is over 40 at 2700-3000.

Am I missing something...???
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I guess not.
 
I think it comes back to this crappy stuff they sell as "Gasoline". This stuff is NOT formulated to run in Carbs. It boils and causes hot start problems. :burnout:MT
 
Cruzin said:
Rob.. the motor is plain jane stock from what i know about it with the exception of the intake, carb, and headers.

If I block off the vacuum advance and set timing for idle at 12° , when I plug the advance line back in and read the total, the timing is over 40 at 2700-3000.

Am I missing something...???
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Yeah, lol, I would think more initial is in order, then you have to limit the mechanical in the distributor.
 
Mopar Tim said:
I think it comes back to this crappy stuff they sell as "Gasoline". This stuff is NOT formulated to run in Carbs. It boils and causes hot start problems. :burnout:MT
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I think MT's got the answer! Crappy gas.

I have the same (irritating) problem with my 273 Commando, 1406 eddy. Cold it starts up immediately. Hot, just the slightest opening of the throttle, then open more when it starts firing. I've been through it all...rebuilt carb, plugs are great, wires are new, running a Pertronics, about 15* initial, 34* total mechanical.

Speaking of starters, my original was starting to go so about 3 weeks ago I went to the junk yard and pulled a mini starter from a Ram 1500, 1996 I think, and bolted it on. Works great, but I sure miss the sound of the ole gear reduction. It had the plastic wire connector so I had to splice it. A different starter will not help the hot starting issue though.
 
The crappy pump swill is without a doubt an issue.

I have posted this before, but I will again.

A couple of summers ago we were having a rather hot/humid stretch of weather, and I was having hard start issues. I swapped out my TQ to a Summit street/strip carb and it helped a bunch.

While I was at it I decided to conduct an experiment, I took a cap from a spray paint can and put about an inch of gas in it (around 3 in the afternoon) and set it on the workbench. It was hot and I decided I would go in the house.

I came out the next day (early afternoon) and checked the cap to find that it was bone dry! That one inch of gas had evaporated in about 22 hours.
 
Hi guys, I went back out and unplugged the vacuum advance line from the dizzy. I capped off the vacuum advance line and the port on the carb.
I reset the timing(at idle 750-800 rpm's) to 12°.
I then uncapped the port and vac line. Put the vac line back on the carb.
I check the timing at approx. 3000 and it was around 45-50°. I revved it more and it did not seem to want to pull over 50°.
I believe I was misinterpreting the mechanical timing vs. the vacuum timing range in regards to the "total" timing. (my bad)
Motor seemed to run better and rev quicker.
However, I just got back from a 25 min. run on the car. So now I'm gonna wait about 20 and see if she fires up any better.
I appreciate the help.
Rob (RRR) did say to me before the motor could stand for more initial timing.
I am just trying to chase down the hard start issue.
Yeah.... I can get "non-ethanol" fuel. I'm going to put a fresh tank of it in and see how much that helps.
 
I am wondering if the mechanical advance in the distributor needs to be adjusted.(which I am not familiar with adjusting).
 
OK ....I am an idiot..lol
I figured it out on timing that is. I didn't realize when I set the initial (idle) timing with vacuum advance disconnected and blocked that I am also supposed to bring the motor to 2700-3000 rpm's and take both those readings and add them together for my total timing.
So. I got 12° initial (idle) and 24° at approx 3000. That equals 36°..
Is this correct?
I was setting the initial timing with the vacumm blocked off (like I should), but I was putting the vacuum line back on the advance and the carb port and reading the timing at 3000 thinking something was wrong because it was pulling 50°+.
my apologies.
I am still having the hard start issue but the car does start a little easier, she just don't pop right over instantly. Kind of a slow start per say.
I guess putting in some non-ethanol will be the next step.
thanks for all the help and I am sorry about my confusion on the timing issue.
 
My car does the same thing. and it's just the crappy fuel I have to use in my case.
In three days of the car sitting the carb is dry. Seems like I evaporate more fuel than I burn.
 
Ain't that the truth...
Mine eats fuel while just sitting....LOL
I'm betting the non-ethanol fuel will help somewhat..
I can get it in 87 or 92 octane.
 
if the 92 is anything like here in California, good luck :)

p.s. mine's a 74', stock 318 / 904. same issue. checked everything out.
crap gas + old motor/carb = gotta' grind that thing sometimes :pale:
 
Cruzin said:
OK ....I am an idiot..lol
I figured it out on timing that is. I didn't realize when I set the initial (idle) timing with vacuum advance disconnected and blocked that I am also supposed to bring the motor to 2700-3000 rpm's and take both those readings and add them together for my total timing.
So. I got 12° initial (idle) and 24° at approx 3000. That equals 36°..
Is this correct?
I was setting the initial timing with the vacumm blocked off (like I should), but I was putting the vacuum line back on the advance and the carb port and reading the timing at 3000 thinking something was wrong because it was pulling 50°+.
my apologies.
I am still having the hard start issue but the car does start a little easier, she just don't pop right over instantly. Kind of a slow start per say.
I guess putting in some non-ethanol will be the next step.
thanks for all the help and I am sorry about my confusion on the timing issue.
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No worries you're not an idiot it is confusing at first, you are obviously learning though which is good some guys come on here and keep doing the same thing over and over again even with explicit instructions, they are the idiots.

When you read 24° at 3000 that IS your total initial + mechanical meaning your distributor only has 12° of mechanical advance. In that case you probably can try bumping up the initial even more until it kicks back against the starter. I'm curious how your mech advance is that low has the distributor been modified at all?

You're lucky you can get non-ethanol gas I think the only place I've seen to get it is a special gas station in south Denver that sells racing-octane-level and leaded gas and that's at least a 1.5 hour drive from where I live.
 
I thought the timing with the vacuum blocked off was the reading of the "idle" reading (which is 12°) and the total (24° at 3000) with the vacuum still blocked off added together.which would mean 36°.
You ain't gonna get 36° with this motor at even 4500 with the vacuum advance blocked off.
I have never touched the dizzy. I don't know if it has ever been touched. The PO didn't say anything about the modification of the dizzy.
Am I still missing something here???
 
Are you saying to keep the vacuum advance hooked up and set the timing at 36° at 3000 rpm's...???
I thought the initial timing was to be set at around 12° with the vacuum blocked off.
If that the case. then then I need to set the total timing (36°) with the vacuum still connected ??
I don't know what the initial will be if I do that until I check.
 
Cruzin said:
Are you saying to keep the vacuum advance hooked up and set the timing at 36° at 3000 rpm's...???
I thought the initial timing was to be set at around 12° with the vacuum blocked off.
If that the case. then then I need to set the total timing (36°) with the vacuum still connected ??
I don't know what the initial will be if I do that until I check.
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No, initial with vacuum plugged. You might get away with a tad more initial. If you get to a point it kicks back on the starter, you went too far, lol.

Limit the mechanical in the dizzy to get where you want for a total, use a lighter spring on one side so it will come in quicker.


Modifying advance slots
degrees / slot size
6.............. .340
7................355
8................375
9................390
10...............405
11.5 ...........420
12...............435
13...............445
14...............460
15...............475
16...............490
17...............505
18...............520


Say you end up with 14* initial, then you want 18* to 20* mechanical to end up at 32* to 34* total.

To get 18* mechanical you would alter the slot to (9.... .390).


Confused yet?
 
Idle timing is initial. With vacuum disconnected and plugged, keep your timing light on the mark and, as you increase RPM, you'll see the timing increase. Keep going until it no longer increases, then go a little more to make sure! The reading you get is initial + mechanical.

Say you set initial at 13* and as you're increasing RPM it increases to 36* and stops. 36* is your initial + mechanical. You want to stay under 36* without vacuum advance connected.

If you're over 36* you either have to decrease initial, or keep the mechanical advance in the distributor from advancing that far. Two ways to do that are 1). weld up the slots in the dizzy mechanical advance plate so it doesn't allow as much movement. or 2). Purchase an FBO limiting plate at:

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Mopar Mechanical timing limiter plate.htm

Working on these old gals is what keeps it fun!!!:burnout:
 
Bruce. With all do respect, I still am not getting it.
If I set the "initial" timing (with the vacuum blocked off).... say I set it at 12° btdc.
I am reading mechanical degrees...right..??
Now...am I supposed to unblock the vacuum advance tube and place it back on the dizzy ??
If so..I am not for sure how to adjust the limits of the dizzy with the advance hooked up.
I know it can't be that hard to understand....but I am still missing something.
 
Once you get initial + mechanical around the 34-35* mark, then add vacuum and you're good up to around 50* TOTAL timing.
 
Cruzin said:
So. I got 12° initial (idle) and 24° at approx 3000. That equals 36°..
Is this correct?
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Oh god no. One of the other poster hit on this, it's initial + mechanical at 24*. Stop worrying about the vacuum can for the moment it's the LAST piece of the puzzle.

You CAN NOT just pick a RPM number to observe total timing. You need to rev the engine up until is stops advancing.

My guess is the distributor has one of the garage door size springs in it and will stop advancing around 4500 rpm.

My 2 cents, advance the initial timing and find the point that the car has a hard time starting, kickback or dragging the starter, and back it off a little from there, that's where initial should be. Then tailor the mechanical to hit your desired total number and change the spring for how quickly it comes in.

There are a ton of threads on this site regarding how to set timing along with some linked magazine article that are helpful.

Did I mention to stop worrying about the vacuum advance right now. LOL

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0301-mopar-electronic-ignition-system/

http://www.setyourtiming.com/Timing_Settings.html

The set your timing is good exept for the suggested 6-12 range for initial timing... that's BS. Set it where you engine wants it. Simple test on a SB, give the distributor a lite twist CCW, if it picked up RPM, it wants the timing.
 
Idle timing is initial. With vacuum disconnected and plugged, keep your timing light on the mark and, as you increase RPM, you'll see the timing increase. Keep going until it no longer increases, then go a little more to make sure! The reading you get is initial + mechanical.
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Are you saying that with the vacuum blocked off...I read 12° at 750 rpm's (idle).
Then with the vacuum "still" blocked off, rev the motor to 3000 rpm's and read the timing light to see what it reads. Your sayin: (without vacuum connected), I should see 34-36° at 3000...???
 
Believe me you aint alone on the timing thing. Its the terminology thats the ***** of it. I just fingered it out myself. Lots of capable people in this thread will help. Im not going to confuse the issue. BUT could the diaphragm in the dizzy be bitched?? Maybe put a vacuum pump on the dizzy to see if it holds vacuum??

FYI, I run a Eddy 1406 on a 67 273 4 bbl. We had initial fuel percolating problems, put a thin spacer and it fixed it.
I know gas is junk now a days, but Im not sure that is the problem. I run 87 octane in it and NEVER have a start issue.
Clean elec connections, maybe try a new fuel filter too??
 
Cruzin said:
Bruce. With all do respect, I still am not getting it.

It takes time.

I know it can't be that hard to understand....but I am still missing something.
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It can be hard to understand, I had a really tough time wrapping my head around it. You will get there.

The key is finding the right person that can put it in words that makes sense. Rob (crackedback) has explained it countless times on here, and I bet I read it 100 times before the bulb came on, lol.
 
But to check if its fuel which I believe it is or ignition,pour a little cap full of gas into the carb and if it fires up you know its fuel,my way of dealing with it on my m880 was to put a primer bulb likes on a boat,but a holley is the best solution.
 
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