dartjack
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I'm glad that is written down. That would be a mouthfull.
head bolt bulge in runner?
- Thread starter 754door
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mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Wow...so my heads are only good up to 289 HP. What would be the next step in raising the bar on my heads? Bowl blending, port and polish?
Where does gasket macthing come in to help?
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Wow that's considerably lower than what I've allways heard. I allways heard max hp is approx. 2 x the head flow cfm at full lift. Then again it's just what I've read, not what I've observed.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Marland,
The next step would be gasket matching and bowl blending, then chambers mods. This is with the cam that your using, a larger cam will make more but the heads have to be done to handle the extra lift and duration. Also too that the lighter the weight of componets and the better machine work will increase HP and roller cams and valvetrains can increase HP up to 30% more than the flow of the heads.
Your heads make 364 HP from the engine, the 322 engine makes 430 HP from the engine and 344 HP to the tires with a small cam and intake, from the flow #'s on the heads. Now due to the light weight parts the engine is really making near 400 HP to the tires and 500 out of the engine, in a detuned state, as we netted 354 HP to the ground on the first day.
The next step would be gasket matching and bowl blending, then chambers mods. This is with the cam that your using, a larger cam will make more but the heads have to be done to handle the extra lift and duration. Also too that the lighter the weight of componets and the better machine work will increase HP and roller cams and valvetrains can increase HP up to 30% more than the flow of the heads.
Your heads make 364 HP from the engine, the 322 engine makes 430 HP from the engine and 344 HP to the tires with a small cam and intake, from the flow #'s on the heads. Now due to the light weight parts the engine is really making near 400 HP to the tires and 500 out of the engine, in a detuned state, as we netted 354 HP to the ground on the first day.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
fishy68,
The reason that this doesnt work is the fact that flow benches differ from bench to bench, but when done this way, would be more equal from bench to bench. As some benches will flow more at high lifts and some will flow more at low lifts. But keeping the bore size and depression the same helps this too.
This is why when flow benching, what ever bench you start on you need to finish on as otherwise you start racing flow benches. The whole thing about flow benching is to maximize the ports for best performance, and see how much change you have made. If you use one bench and then another you wont know if the change is better or worse as the flows will be different. So it's important to use one operator and one bench when doing flow and porting work. This is why good head shops have ther own flow benches and trained personel that operate them, so results can be duplicated.
The reason that this doesnt work is the fact that flow benches differ from bench to bench, but when done this way, would be more equal from bench to bench. As some benches will flow more at high lifts and some will flow more at low lifts. But keeping the bore size and depression the same helps this too.
This is why when flow benching, what ever bench you start on you need to finish on as otherwise you start racing flow benches. The whole thing about flow benching is to maximize the ports for best performance, and see how much change you have made. If you use one bench and then another you wont know if the change is better or worse as the flows will be different. So it's important to use one operator and one bench when doing flow and porting work. This is why good head shops have ther own flow benches and trained personel that operate them, so results can be duplicated.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Marland,
Also keep in mind that your engine is only 282 or so CI's and really cant use more than what head that you have, If your looking for engine HP then 364 HP is what you have. 1.29 HP per CI is very good for the cam that your using, and making up to 1.5 HP per CI is fairly easy but after this becomes very expensive.
The 322 at 1.5 HP per CI would be 483 HP and this is a 318, so 423 HP from a 282 CI engine is strong, so 59 more HP is waiting for you in machining of the short block. For instance a 408 that makes 500 HP from the engine is only at 1.23 HP per CI and one that makes 550 HP is 1.35 HP per CI.
The 322 is at 1.38 HP per CI or 443 HP with a .528 cam and ported 302 heads, KB 167 pistons and light weight parts, and this is detuned.
Also keep in mind that your engine is only 282 or so CI's and really cant use more than what head that you have, If your looking for engine HP then 364 HP is what you have. 1.29 HP per CI is very good for the cam that your using, and making up to 1.5 HP per CI is fairly easy but after this becomes very expensive.
The 322 at 1.5 HP per CI would be 483 HP and this is a 318, so 423 HP from a 282 CI engine is strong, so 59 more HP is waiting for you in machining of the short block. For instance a 408 that makes 500 HP from the engine is only at 1.23 HP per CI and one that makes 550 HP is 1.35 HP per CI.
The 322 is at 1.38 HP per CI or 443 HP with a .528 cam and ported 302 heads, KB 167 pistons and light weight parts, and this is detuned.
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
I really want to learn how to do head work to make them flow better. I found this and fortunately they are using small block Mopar cylinder heads so I can try to match the picture to the head I'm working on.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en...dcore/0602em_cylinder_head_porting/index.html
I have some old heads I would work on first and see if I can the flow numbers up on them. I'm serious about this now and try to take my time and learn how.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en...dcore/0602em_cylinder_head_porting/index.html
I have some old heads I would work on first and see if I can the flow numbers up on them. I'm serious about this now and try to take my time and learn how.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Marland,
When you have the time and want to get started, bring a head and come down on a weekend and I'll teach you how and why. As it's better to learn by doing and seeing how it effects the flow and knowing why you did it than to look at pictures and not know what there reasoning was behind it. There are really only a few areas to pay attention to and the rest is simple smoothing, but not too smooth. Roughness and irregularities in port texture can be a big help in making HP but wont show a flow increase or decrease.
When you have the time and want to get started, bring a head and come down on a weekend and I'll teach you how and why. As it's better to learn by doing and seeing how it effects the flow and knowing why you did it than to look at pictures and not know what there reasoning was behind it. There are really only a few areas to pay attention to and the rest is simple smoothing, but not too smooth. Roughness and irregularities in port texture can be a big help in making HP but wont show a flow increase or decrease.
sublimeswinger
SUBLIME Senior Member
BJR
As you well know i live in CA. But i am more then willing to let you pack up your stuff and bring it here to Cali and teach me! lol
Wish i lived closer, i would like to sit in on that.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
OK I get where your coming from. Thanks for the explanation. Tracy
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Bobby,
I didn't see your new post until today.
Yeah that would be great.
I have been looking at die grinders and have seen the head porting kit that is available. I really would like to add more flow to the new heads before they go on a bigger motor and be able to say I did it. LOL!
340demon
old man
there is a shop here in washington that said he has a cnc program for small block head that will make a set of stock 1971 340 J head flow better than mild ported eddy heads on the high value opening and better on the middle range is this possible or is this a sales pitch
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I know of a pontiac shop (sd performance) right across the border in Canada thats doing it with pontiac heads,very nice results.
Head porters all have impressive numbers. Which really don't mean anything. It's the percentage gains of 'before and after'. I'd still take a set of Eddy's over steel OEM. Flow's better and comb chamber is more efficient. Unless you're hamstrung by factoring, aftermarket is far better, flow and cost
wise. IMO.
wise. IMO.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Hey Len,
Heres the #'s that I have on my bench and on the same day and I'm the operator, also the porter with 30 + years of experience. Now correct me if I'm wrong but these #'s don't lie.......to me.
Eddy's Out of the box
Int/Exh
.100 88 93
.200 138 153
.300 200 179
.400 228 190
.500 242 201
.600 248 205
now heres a Mopar performance head out of the box
Int./Exh.
.100 90 108
.200 164 156
.300 205 176
.400 228 185
.500 241 188
.600 232 190
heres a ported eddy
Int./Exh.
.100 88 95
.200 170 148
.300 214 178
.400 248 199
.500 289 212
.600 298 213
Now a ported 915 with a 1.88 not a 2.02
Int./Exh.
.100 94 89
.200 180 133
.300 222 181
.400 241 196
.500 280 201
.600 283 206
Sorry but aftermarket heads are expensive to stock castings, the latest prices on eddy's are near $1,500.00 a set out of the box then add porting cost and you now have over $2,000.00 in a set of good heads. Then the parts are sub par and wont hold a good profile camshaft.(IMO)
But then we all have our own opinions and have our own ideas of what is acceptable. To me eddy's dont add up, and for the $$$$ spent there are better heads for the $$$$.
I can say this that I've repaired the Eddy's and the quality is very, very poor as trash comes out when welding and has to be ground out before welding can proceed. So I can speak from experience and from working with these castings. Give me a old castings for the $$$ spent and repairability or new good quality casting from Brodix or Mopar and then we'll have something. At least we'll have something to repair. Sorry for the rant but IMO this has been the findings.
Heres the #'s that I have on my bench and on the same day and I'm the operator, also the porter with 30 + years of experience. Now correct me if I'm wrong but these #'s don't lie.......to me.
Eddy's Out of the box
Int/Exh
.100 88 93
.200 138 153
.300 200 179
.400 228 190
.500 242 201
.600 248 205
now heres a Mopar performance head out of the box
Int./Exh.
.100 90 108
.200 164 156
.300 205 176
.400 228 185
.500 241 188
.600 232 190
heres a ported eddy
Int./Exh.
.100 88 95
.200 170 148
.300 214 178
.400 248 199
.500 289 212
.600 298 213
Now a ported 915 with a 1.88 not a 2.02
Int./Exh.
.100 94 89
.200 180 133
.300 222 181
.400 241 196
.500 280 201
.600 283 206
Sorry but aftermarket heads are expensive to stock castings, the latest prices on eddy's are near $1,500.00 a set out of the box then add porting cost and you now have over $2,000.00 in a set of good heads. Then the parts are sub par and wont hold a good profile camshaft.(IMO)
But then we all have our own opinions and have our own ideas of what is acceptable. To me eddy's dont add up, and for the $$$$ spent there are better heads for the $$$$.
I can say this that I've repaired the Eddy's and the quality is very, very poor as trash comes out when welding and has to be ground out before welding can proceed. So I can speak from experience and from working with these castings. Give me a old castings for the $$$ spent and repairability or new good quality casting from Brodix or Mopar and then we'll have something. At least we'll have something to repair. Sorry for the rant but IMO this has been the findings.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I agree with this,Ive spent quite a bit of time with my machinist while hes flowing heads and have seen the results.The only interesting thing bjr is his bench comes up with lower peak flow rates but identical patterns with yours regarding the different head configurations.For curiositys sake what bench and software do you use?,also do you have any pics of your ported head with a 1.88?,and lastly what are you using for a seat radius and throat?.Ive been using around a 80% rule for my bowl (2.02 valve) and a 50 degree valve seat (multi angle serdi type) with a 70 degree throat,I seem to be able to get easily in the 240-250 range with no major work and good velocity/clean air,they work great for my street engines making between 425-475 h.p..
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
lead69,
I dont have any pics of the heads but I can take some, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the pics.
As for the bench I use a SuperFlow bench.
I do a 30/45/65/75 and get 92% to the bowl. And some times a 15/30/45/65/75 depends on the chamber.
I dont have any pics of the heads but I can take some, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the pics.
As for the bench I use a SuperFlow bench.
I do a 30/45/65/75 and get 92% to the bowl. And some times a 15/30/45/65/75 depends on the chamber.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
The second grind is almsot exact as mine with the exception of the valve seat itself,Im very intrigued on the rest of the package!.I will get you my e-mail,I love to learn and its always nice to talk shop on heads with someone new,thanks alot.
BJR. I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not trying slam your results. I'm sure you're getting fine results. Nor am I back-tracking. I'm merely stated that all flow numbers are going to be different from bench to bench, operator to operator, so don't get caught up with numbers. And I see you mentioned you did it with mp heads. I thought we were talking about old heads. And as far as cast vs aluminum. I'll take the later since they can be repaired much easier. I'm also welll aware that all manufacturers have their good and bad pieces go out the door. Chrysler included. My W2's had .005"-more run-out as delivered. And I don't want to get into spring pads.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Len,
I also did it with a set of 915's in the ported form verses the Eddy's ported. The last 2 sets of flow #'s are the comparison. I just put the MP heads to show that there is another way other than the eddy's, and they were less cost for the same amount of air flow. I would bet that with a good gasket match and some bowl work that the MP heads would be close to the eddy's in ported form or just under. Where as the eddy's were fully ported the MP heads would still have some left.
I used the MP heads because they were close in intake cc's and exh. cc's and chamber cc's, they both used the same size valves. These were the cc's that I came up with.
MP head
Int. 161
Exh. 63
Chamber 64
Eddy head
Int 169
Exh. 64
Chamber 62
I also did it with a set of 915's in the ported form verses the Eddy's ported. The last 2 sets of flow #'s are the comparison. I just put the MP heads to show that there is another way other than the eddy's, and they were less cost for the same amount of air flow. I would bet that with a good gasket match and some bowl work that the MP heads would be close to the eddy's in ported form or just under. Where as the eddy's were fully ported the MP heads would still have some left.
I used the MP heads because they were close in intake cc's and exh. cc's and chamber cc's, they both used the same size valves. These were the cc's that I came up with.
MP head
Int. 161
Exh. 63
Chamber 64
Eddy head
Int 169
Exh. 64
Chamber 62
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Ok
LOL, great thread guys. After reading this all, I see where you guys come up with different numbers on the same heads and then someone goes WHOA! What happened.
Never race flow benchs. It was said before but I'm a gonna say it again, it's not what the bench says, it's what kind of improvments are made over a base line from the same bench and operator.
On the Edel. head vs. old iron head debate, sometimes I don't blame a guy for getting a Edelbrock heads. It has a decent OOTB performance that is mostly just a simple bolt on deal. For fellas living in the sticks of now where, this is an easy upgrade vs sending them out which could be a long and far drive adding to much cost next to the full price of a delivered to your door set of heads.
A decent hed guy you can trust is another issue, locally speaking, in that persons town.
Never race flow benchs. It was said before but I'm a gonna say it again, it's not what the bench says, it's what kind of improvments are made over a base line from the same bench and operator.
On the Edel. head vs. old iron head debate, sometimes I don't blame a guy for getting a Edelbrock heads. It has a decent OOTB performance that is mostly just a simple bolt on deal. For fellas living in the sticks of now where, this is an easy upgrade vs sending them out which could be a long and far drive adding to much cost next to the full price of a delivered to your door set of heads.
A decent hed guy you can trust is another issue, locally speaking, in that persons town.
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
It was fun to watch wasn't it Rob?
For me I can't afford over $1200 worth of heads. So taking the OEM heads and using them is my only option. I believe you can get the same results or better with a set of OEM heads if one sets his mind to it. It will take time to get OEM heads to flow but you still got money in the pocket.
I know the feeling about a far drive and buying gas.
For me I can't afford over $1200 worth of heads. So taking the OEM heads and using them is my only option. I believe you can get the same results or better with a set of OEM heads if one sets his mind to it. It will take time to get OEM heads to flow but you still got money in the pocket.
I know the feeling about a far drive and buying gas.
sublimeswinger
SUBLIME Senior Member
I agree with you about the Eddys, They do look nice though, But just to prove a point, This years mopar mag engine challange was for small blocks, The winner and many others used Iron heads. Due to cost and what you can get out of them for the cost. It says something, when the engine builders for INDY, who won, went with Mag. iron heads over even their own Alluminum.
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