"help".. Hey everyone.Im new too this site and i need to ask for advice bad..any help would GREATLY be appreciated...ok here goes. Im workin on a 440 that was just built for my buddies car and i put it in a fired it up..did the cam break in procedure for the comp cams hydr. 305h magnum...."it has single springs so i didnt take them out"..and everything was fine so i changed the oil and then started in on the carb and fine tuned the timing when i heard a slight tapping.I immediatley cut it off and pulled the valve covers.It has adjustible rockers and some were loose so i started to adjust them and then realized they were too loose...uhoh..soo i pulled the intake..to find that the lifters are ground down so far that the pressure spring inside is riding the cam on a few lobes...jessus...well the lifters spin freely and there is no bind and all the oil gallyes were wet and lubed...no blockages..and the springs dont have too much seat pressure for the combo...but what i have to ask i see all these parts places sayin there is a difference between solid and hyr. pushrods..?The pushrods that are in this motor have no oil passage on the bottom and i think thats the problem.. I need to know any info especially the pushrod question...do i have the wrong set?I didnt build the motor and the guy that did was a [email protected] im a chevy man so i need yall guys help....If you could email me any answer i would greatly app it..i have to get this car running so it can get to the body shop..thanks in advance. -josh
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Help cam problem in a 440
- Thread starter Lumpy
- Start date
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BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
Josh,
BBD pushrods dont oil through the pushrods they oil through the block just as the early small blocks do, sounds like cheap lifters to me, make sure that the oil holes aren't blocked in the heads as this will cause the same problem and burn up alot of parts in the heads and cam area. Are the heads getting plenty of oil? This will be a tell tail sign, but something to check just some thoughts, let us know what you find.
BBD pushrods dont oil through the pushrods they oil through the block just as the early small blocks do, sounds like cheap lifters to me, make sure that the oil holes aren't blocked in the heads as this will cause the same problem and burn up alot of parts in the heads and cam area. Are the heads getting plenty of oil? This will be a tell tail sign, but something to check just some thoughts, let us know what you find.
moper
Well-Known Member
The Comp 305H doesnt spec single springs...Soi there are a couple problems. First, not knowing what you have for singles, I'm using the comp number 911s as an example. It's similar to the MP "Hemi"type single spring with dampener. If you have stock single springs, your builder should find another line of work.
The cam specs the Comp 924, which is a double spring with a dampener. It requires the spring seats be cut flat (removing the step that indexes the stock oor single type springs), and the guide to be milled down and narrowed to use the small positive type valve seals. You cant run double springs without doing that. At least not for too long. Nowadays, the oil issues and break in procedures say to keep the inner spring out during cam break in. That would have been on the paperwork if you bought a cam and lifter kit, as opposed to the cam and lifters seperate. Some shops dont bother, some guys dont like to have to go back in and install the inners later. I dont mind the extra level of safety, so that's how I do all my break ins.
Assuming you used a typical 911 type deal...You have a couple things. The spings are designed to be able to accomodate a certain amount of lift. In the 911s case, the coils hit each other when using Comp type retainers at approximately 1.200" as measured from the spring seat to the top of the retainer. They are installed (or recommended by Comp) to go in at 1.900, but I find most going in around 1.8-1.85 using Comp retainers, new valves, seats, etc. That would give you .600" lift max before coil bind. Plenty for that cam, which has 525, minus the usual rocker ratio and angle losses. It should be tall enough to accomodate your selection. But, the tension is way too light. Like 15% too light. In terms of RPM, tha means 5000 rpm vs 5900. And really, it's much worse than that, because bad harmonics caused by the lifter not following the cam will hurt you way before that. The 911s reach peak tension at .350" valve lift when installed at 1.85. The 924s reach peak at .550. Bad harmonics can cause the lifters to lose the oil film, and then in less than a second, they're trash.
Now on to the lifters. You didnt mention which ones you had. Or if lifter preload was checked when the lash was set cold. There are two types of lifters Comp uses. One is more a stock street type, and is fairly easy to over tighten the rocker adjustment during lash sessions. Those are p/n 822-16, and are cheaper and listed as OK for the cam. Teh number I'd rather use is 867-16. It's a performance "anti pump up" lifter that makes sure the valve train is stable at higher rpms. Using them can also help idle quality in a street car.
At this point, I'd say your engine guy messed up. Whether or not it was trying to fit a budget, or simply a metter of him not building enough Mopars to really know, he should have said "no" to running the wrong springs, and he should know how to set preload to make sure things are safe for you to start it. I've used Comp products for 16 years now, and even with the more recent issues of break in problems, I've had no cam/lifter failures. But I havent ran inner springs since '90 on break in, and I have spots on my assembly sheet for lifter preload and checking for rotation. Many pro shops dont.
As far as the firing and break in...How was that done exactly? How long did it sit before install? how was it prelubed? what oils/any additives used? What oil filter was on it?
The cam specs the Comp 924, which is a double spring with a dampener. It requires the spring seats be cut flat (removing the step that indexes the stock oor single type springs), and the guide to be milled down and narrowed to use the small positive type valve seals. You cant run double springs without doing that. At least not for too long. Nowadays, the oil issues and break in procedures say to keep the inner spring out during cam break in. That would have been on the paperwork if you bought a cam and lifter kit, as opposed to the cam and lifters seperate. Some shops dont bother, some guys dont like to have to go back in and install the inners later. I dont mind the extra level of safety, so that's how I do all my break ins.
Assuming you used a typical 911 type deal...You have a couple things. The spings are designed to be able to accomodate a certain amount of lift. In the 911s case, the coils hit each other when using Comp type retainers at approximately 1.200" as measured from the spring seat to the top of the retainer. They are installed (or recommended by Comp) to go in at 1.900, but I find most going in around 1.8-1.85 using Comp retainers, new valves, seats, etc. That would give you .600" lift max before coil bind. Plenty for that cam, which has 525, minus the usual rocker ratio and angle losses. It should be tall enough to accomodate your selection. But, the tension is way too light. Like 15% too light. In terms of RPM, tha means 5000 rpm vs 5900. And really, it's much worse than that, because bad harmonics caused by the lifter not following the cam will hurt you way before that. The 911s reach peak tension at .350" valve lift when installed at 1.85. The 924s reach peak at .550. Bad harmonics can cause the lifters to lose the oil film, and then in less than a second, they're trash.
Now on to the lifters. You didnt mention which ones you had. Or if lifter preload was checked when the lash was set cold. There are two types of lifters Comp uses. One is more a stock street type, and is fairly easy to over tighten the rocker adjustment during lash sessions. Those are p/n 822-16, and are cheaper and listed as OK for the cam. Teh number I'd rather use is 867-16. It's a performance "anti pump up" lifter that makes sure the valve train is stable at higher rpms. Using them can also help idle quality in a street car.
At this point, I'd say your engine guy messed up. Whether or not it was trying to fit a budget, or simply a metter of him not building enough Mopars to really know, he should have said "no" to running the wrong springs, and he should know how to set preload to make sure things are safe for you to start it. I've used Comp products for 16 years now, and even with the more recent issues of break in problems, I've had no cam/lifter failures. But I havent ran inner springs since '90 on break in, and I have spots on my assembly sheet for lifter preload and checking for rotation. Many pro shops dont.
As far as the firing and break in...How was that done exactly? How long did it sit before install? how was it prelubed? what oils/any additives used? What oil filter was on it?
Hey..BJR.. it looks like all the parts have a nice oil coating like theres no starvation issues and the oil holes in the lifter area are all clear and wet looking..
Hey Moper..The motor has eldelbrock preformer RPM heads and they came preassymbled..i read up the specs and they have a .600 bind hight ...as for the lifters i couldnt tell you...if i had to guess id say they were cheap comp street lifters..they guy that built the motor wont say because he screwed over my buddy and overcharged him on everything..and yea on the spring question i thought it would be a double with a damp. but its the single with the damp...everything i run in my motors works out for doubles when u get into the magnum line...like you i also live by comp...its all i use and ive had great results...as in his case..i had nothing to do with it im just tryin to get it back together and running rite...as in the lifter preload they guy set it before my bud got it (guessing around a 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload)..and said it was ready to fire...guessing he had break in lube on the parts cause if not hes a 'tard..we ran a regular racing filter and 10-40 valv...and unhooked the dist. and cranked it over untill we had achived oil pressure...fired it up and set the idle rite away to about 2k-2.5k for 15 -20 mins...im starting over on the valve-train...thinkin of the comp high lift series..?any comments or ideas...its a 10.1 in a 65 polara..big car and hes not gunna race it so i was thinkin bout a hard hitting dual pattern....not the rev the snot out of it single profile magnum..??..i just dont want it too happen again if that idiot messed sumpthing up on the build...thanks BJR and MOPER...any more help or idea would be great thanks..
Hey Moper..The motor has eldelbrock preformer RPM heads and they came preassymbled..i read up the specs and they have a .600 bind hight ...as for the lifters i couldnt tell you...if i had to guess id say they were cheap comp street lifters..they guy that built the motor wont say because he screwed over my buddy and overcharged him on everything..and yea on the spring question i thought it would be a double with a damp. but its the single with the damp...everything i run in my motors works out for doubles when u get into the magnum line...like you i also live by comp...its all i use and ive had great results...as in his case..i had nothing to do with it im just tryin to get it back together and running rite...as in the lifter preload they guy set it before my bud got it (guessing around a 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload)..and said it was ready to fire...guessing he had break in lube on the parts cause if not hes a 'tard..we ran a regular racing filter and 10-40 valv...and unhooked the dist. and cranked it over untill we had achived oil pressure...fired it up and set the idle rite away to about 2k-2.5k for 15 -20 mins...im starting over on the valve-train...thinkin of the comp high lift series..?any comments or ideas...its a 10.1 in a 65 polara..big car and hes not gunna race it so i was thinkin bout a hard hitting dual pattern....not the rev the snot out of it single profile magnum..??..i just dont want it too happen again if that idiot messed sumpthing up on the build...thanks BJR and MOPER...any more help or idea would be great thanks..
66dartman
Well-Known Member
I broke my 360 flat tappet in without removing the inner springs and they are Comp 987's. I used the Torco cam lube, BG MOA and 15w-40 Rotella oil. Maybe when the engine was cranked to build oil pressure the lube was wiped off the cam, or maybe the builder didn't even lube the cam with EP lube. I used anything I could to avoid cam problems because I am lazy and didn't want to reinstall the inner springs. I recommend Shell 15w-40 Rotella diesel oil for break in and I always add BG products MOA ep lube. I have seen that stuff really work.
moper
Well-Known Member
HHMMM. The edlebrock springs are a little stiffer than 911s, so they might well be enough. You cant use max lift as a factor when choosing springs. At least not if you want the cam to perform right. That being said..I see a few things..First, setting preload is not a matter of turns. It's a distance spec. Due to machining and tolerances, in many cases, the preload amount for each lifter will require different amounts of truning. You want between .020 and .030" preload on each lifter. DIfferent rocker arms, old millers on the block and/or head deck surfaces, valve job work..All can change that "X number of turns after 0". And stock style lifters can compress slightly just by the weight of the pushrod and arm on them if they are new and full of nothing but air. Preload should be set with the intake valley open, and a wire feeler gage should be inserted under the retaining clip on the lifter to verify the right amount. Once things are hot and the air is bled out, using the "turn method" should work. Also, I find aluminum heads will cool so fast, that I now do one head, then warm the engine up some more, and do the 2nd. I get better results. I also see you used std 10-40 oil. That's a big no-no now. You ned to use either deisel rated oil (like the Rotella everybody likes) or performance oils that will have the zink in them. Also, you should be adding a can of GM engine oil supplement to the crank case before firing. The 305 is a fairly decent size hydraulic. I'm guess the oil is what did it in. Comp now has the break in procedures in the boxes and it mentions Rotella.
As far as a cam choice..a true 10.1:1 with aluminum heads? If the car has manifolds, a split pattern will help. If the car has headers, then single is fine too. If the heads were not as good as Edelbrocks, split pattern can help make up for the imbalance. Same deal extending out to the manifolding or headers. I'd probably have spec'd a milder cam tho. One of my favorites is a Crane H302-2. It's a hydraulic, idles well, and makes very good torque and midrange, while stil being able to spin to 6500. Comp 1st choice would be the XE275HL.
As far as a cam choice..a true 10.1:1 with aluminum heads? If the car has manifolds, a split pattern will help. If the car has headers, then single is fine too. If the heads were not as good as Edelbrocks, split pattern can help make up for the imbalance. Same deal extending out to the manifolding or headers. I'd probably have spec'd a milder cam tho. One of my favorites is a Crane H302-2. It's a hydraulic, idles well, and makes very good torque and midrange, while stil being able to spin to 6500. Comp 1st choice would be the XE275HL.
BJR Racing
Well-Known Member
With all the issues discussed here I might need a refresher course, (not being smart or sarcastic) but I don't have the problems that are being talked about here, and also (not knocking you) but Edelbrocks aren't very good heads, it really depends on the application more than the heads. As for the cams talked about here they are very large for the street and are more suited for bracket racing. I know that I'm going to catch flack about this but then everyone has there own ideas and so it will stay. I know that there are machining issues and there are part issues, but springs and break in procedures and oil don't always make cams and lifters go bad. Pushrod length and geometery are more important, I guess this is where Moper is going. But if everything is right goemetery wise then there shouldn't be a problem. Unless it's a rocker issue causing the problems ( high ratio). But then this should be corrected by the pushrod and the engine builder and not the end user. Sorry if I stepped on anyones toes.
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