Help with front end alignment

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Steve Agrella

Steve Agrella

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I have a 1974 Duster, replaced the k frame with a QA1 and QA1 upper and lower tubular control arms.
I’ve been through two alignments and two sets of tires in 5000 miles, the tires are wearing out on the inside treads, very fast the tires are Cooper Cobras 225-60-15
The car was rechecked too find that the 1st guy that aligned the car rounded out the camber washers so they replaced them, now the car pulls to the left, the camber Is good holding now but they say the Caster is out any advise that I can tell these people to get this car aligned properly would be greatly appreciated
 
Steve Agrella said:
I have a 1974 Duster, replaced the k frame with a QA1 and QA1 upper and lower tubular control arms.
I’ve been through two alignments and two sets of tires in 5000 miles, the tires are wearing out on the inside treads, very fast the tires are Cooper Cobras 225-60-15
The car was rechecked too find that the 1st guy that aligned the car rounded out the camber washers so they replaced them, now the car pulls to the left, the camber Is good holding now but they say the Caster is out any advise that I can tell these people to get this car aligned properly would be greatly appreciated
Click to expand...
You need to find an Old School Tech
 
Sounds to me like the problem isn’t what you’re telling them, it’s that the alignment shops you’ve been to aren’t capable of doing the work.

Assuming everything was installed correctly, the alignment should be as simple as adjusting the eccentrics and tie rod ends. It’s not difficult.

F47F54E7-9FB3-4643-BF09-D4B067C3436E.jpeg
 
Camber and caster don’t wear the tires out if the toe is set properly.
Park the car on a flat surface and measure the distance between the fronts and rears of the front wheels. I like mine set 1/16” toed in.
Don’t be scared to make adjustments yourself. Most shops don’t know what they’re doing either.
 
The above statement is false. Camber and toe are both tire wearing adjustments on there own.

find a front end shop that can work on an old car.
 
413 said:
The above statement is false. Camber and toe are both tire wearing adjustments on there own.

find a front end shop that can work on an old car.
Click to expand...

Camber is really only a tire wearing adjustment if it’s set to more than 1* in either direction. Less than 1* and camber isn’t the issue.

And 1* of camber is pretty easily visible just by looking at the tires, they will appear tipped in or out at the tops if the camber setting is over +/- 1*. So if the tires appear vertical when straight ahead, the wear issue is most likely toe. If they appear slightly tipped in or out, then it’s possible that camber is contributing. But to kill a set of tires in less than 5k miles it’s a toe setting unless there are several degrees of camber. Which would be super obvious.

I run -1.1* of camber on my duster, the camber is visible just looking at the wheels, and the increased tire wear doesn’t really show up until there’s tens of thousands of miles on the tires. And even then it’s not enough for the tires to be out of service.
 
IMHO, if the inside of the tires is wearing so fast then the toe would have to be toed out a lot. And would probably cause tracking issues.



Screenshot_20211221-200352.png
 
That tire wear chart is for bias ply tires. A small amount of toe
will wear a radial tire on one or the other edge due to sidewall flex, unlike the bias ply tire in the chart. Front toe will also not change the tracking as it always divides in a dynamic condition.
 
It sounds like this has everything new suspension wise.

BUT I would go back to basics and check every part. Jack it up and start wiggling parts, get an assistant to help, stare down every connection/joint/bolt/flange…

Quality control with aftermarket performance parts is lacking.

Even aftermarket OE parts are lacking because nowadays they are low volume parts. Sometimes subbed out to contractors or lesser assembly lines.

it could be that they are getting an accurate static alignment, but as it goes down the road something is changing.

do you have the two alignment machine printouts?
 
413 said:
The above statement is false. Camber and toe are both tire wearing adjustments on there own.

find a front end shop that can work on an old car.
Click to expand...
This ^^^^ Camber is the tilt of the center line of the wheel from vertical. Towards the frame of the car at the top is negative, towards the outside at the top is positive. Very easy to see camber IS a tire wearing angle. Toe is also a tire wearing angle, as mentioned.

Caster is the only of the three that does not wear tires, but contributes greatly to how a car handles.

You have to be careful. There are some very unscrupulous "mechanics" out there, normally found in high volume tire shops that know how to align a vehicle so that it will wear tires out much faster than normal, but wear them evenly. No way in the world would I go to a large tire outlet for an alignment, unless I KNOW the alignment tech. ....but I do all my own anyway.
 
Bodyperson said:
That tire wear chart is for bias ply tires. A small amount of toe
will wear a radial tire on one or the other edge due to sidewall flex, unlike the bias ply tire in the chart. Front toe will also not change the tracking as it always divides in a dynamic condition.
Click to expand...
It can be for both. You simply have to understand that modern radials do not wear "as much" from camber changes as bias ply tires do.
 
413 said:
The above statement is false. Camber and toe are both tire wearing adjustments on there own.

find a front end shop that can work on an old car.
Click to expand...
If the toe is set properly, camber will not wear the tires out in 2500 miles. Unless maybe you have it set up like this. Which I don’t think he does
591E4F80-0F6C-4C1F-A56B-09278E6A731E.jpeg
 
Have you considered contacting QA1 for their opinions. I would think they would be able to help.
 
harrisonm said:
Have you considered contacting QA1 for their opinions. I would think they would be able to help.
Click to expand...

QA1 will start by asking what the current alignment specs are like i asked earlier (still not posted), and they wont be able to help unless he can tell them.
 
Scamp Rhonda said:
I used a 1x1 piece of wood that fit just inside of my tire rim and put my phone up against it. I didn't use it for caster but I think it would work just as well.
Click to expand...
And for some of us a plain 'ol level will do the same as the phone.
 
Ironracer said:
You need to find an Old School Tech
Click to expand...
Thought I had found one but even he screwed up by setting my toe in to 1"!! At the time I had been learning about front end geometry and what caster and camber did for the car so I started to learn how to do it myself then take the car to have it checked. I dialed in the camber where I wanted it and just guessed on the caster (eyeballed it?? lol), set the toe and did a test drive and it felt good and actually went straight so off to the shop we went. The 'old' guy said things looked good except the toe was off a bit so he set it. The dang thing felt like it wanted to roll over on the way home. I set it back to where it was before going and never looked back. And how does one make a mistake like that on an alignment rack??
 
RustyRatRod said:
It can be for both. You simply have to understand that modern radials do not wear "as much" from camber changes as bias ply tires do.
Click to expand...
No. A "toe" out of spec radial tire does not wear like the tire in the tire wear chart that was posted. Only bias ply wear like that.
 
Here’s the current specs on the car, one thing I should mention the torsion bar adjusters on the control arms the right dude is bottomed out and the left side is about 1/3 the way in.
The left side the torsion bar is hitting the frame

200D26C5-F4CA-425A-84C3-CD2FF14DE04D.jpeg
 
Sorry to say you have more than alignment problem.
Steve Agrella said:
the torsion bar adjusters on the control arms the right dude is bottomed out and the left side is about 1/3 the way in.
The left side the torsion bar is hitting the frame
Click to expand...
 
Also the camber washers were completely rounded out, the guy at the alignment shop seems old school and knows what he’s doing fingers crossed

0F46505E-886F-4B96-AB3D-1801EFF27B51.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Bodyperson said:
No. A "toe" out of spec radial tire does not wear like the tire in the tire wear chart that was posted. Only bias ply wear like that.
Click to expand...
I'm not debating it. Yes it can. Just not as exaggerated, as the tread keeps contact with the road much better. If the toe is out a significant amount, yes it can and will.
 
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