How does cid make power?

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You missed one Rob. Horsepower is NOT the result of torque. It never is. It is the result of torque and RPM. You can have all the torque in the world and without RPM you have zero horsepower.
Crap! Missed that one? I thought I made some sort of mention or something. Tiring day. I’m done driving in the car today.
Thanks to the wife I could reply as I was the passenger for 4+ of the 8 hour trip. My eyes had enough after a bunch of rain and early traffic.

I got one for you….

How does one measure engine torque without the piston moving?
 
@273 I think your question has been answered several times very well.
 
Crap! Missed that one? I thought I made some sort of mention or something. Tiring day. I’m done driving in the car today.
Thanks to the wife I could reply as I was the passenger for 4+ of the 8 hour trip. My eyes had enough after a bunch of rain and early traffic.

I got one for you….

How does one measure engine torque without the piston moving?


Answer: you don’t.

Here’s one for you…

How does one measure torque with the piston moving?
 
Correct!

A machine … dyno. How the machine works specifically, exactly, I do not know. Or was the answer your looking for a bit deeper/earlier in history?


Not a trick question. I jus didn’t know if you knew how the dyno records torque.

There is a load cell that is mounted to the absorber. As you add load the absorber tries to rotate against the load and that load cell sends a voltage signal to the computer and then there is some voodoo math that’s way over my head that calculates that signal to torque. Then the computer does some pretty simple math and takes that torque reading and the RPM at which the torque was measured and it gives horsepower.

Pretty cool really.
 
Auhhjjj, my missing component was the electrical end.
Thanks m also not familwith how the water brake is exactly working ether.
 
Auhhjjj, my missing component was the electrical end.
Thanks m also not familwith how the water brake is exactly working ether.


It’s basically a big torque converter that uses water to create load. Some water brake absorbers (Super Flow) add water to increase the load and some other systems (I’m not sure which) take away water to get the load.

Ok, I typed that out and I’m not sure I said it correctly. I’ll say it this way.

The Super Flow has a servo load control valve that (in most cases) is controlled by a computer. And that valve can either reduce water expelled by the absorber to increase the load. That’s how Super Flow does it. If the absorber needs more load to control the acceleration rate (which is also controlled by the computer and the servo valve) then the controller on the servo closes and forces more water to stay in the absorber and that creates more load.

There are some systems (I can’t name them but I know they are out there) that dump water to increase the load.

You can control how fast or how slow the engine accelerates by that servo valve and the load controller that controls how much water is either retained or dumped by it.
 
@273 I think your question has been answered several times very well.

Let's just break this down to the 410 vs 360, which represents the average type build of a guy with a credit card and a summit catalog :) Funny how we both think this shows each of us are right. Now most everyone says adding a decent amount of displacement will add torque which we all know it does 100% of the time but also says a decent amount of hp will also be gained, with a gain of 50 cid a 14% cid gain should add a good amount of hp to peak and power curve if people are right.

So my question is where's the hp gain ?
And why didn't it happen here ?

If someone can answer this reasonably well then I'd say it's been answered.

410 - 362.5 hp under the curve avg, 1.05hp/1.17lbs-ft per cid, +2% peak hp
360 - 361.2 hp under the curve avg, 1.18hp/1.23lbs-ft per cid

410 - 3000=250 3500=310 4000=365 4500=399 5000=420 5500=431hp
360 - 3300=252 3800=315 4300=360 4800=399 5300=418 5800=423hp
 
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You were shown this answer in various forms and it was already explained.
 
There is a simple equation relating intake port flow to horse power. There is another simple equation linking cubic inch, rpm and intake flow. There are general assumptions and general limits, but seems to be a pretty good ballpark.
 
You were shown this answer in various forms and it was already explained.

Yes everyone for 7 pages have been telling me how adding 50 cid (not a trivial amount) would gain NO perceivable amount of horsepower (in this eg.). Oh wait that was me and they been arguing the opposite, added displacement equals added hp. This shows fault in your guys logic, you don't want to answer cause this shows you could be wrong.
 
Only you see it as I or we of the board as not wanting to answer the question or at least in your favor. I don’t know how to explain, show and prove it. It has been explained several times & shown in video.

The gains in power, HP and torque have been displayed in video. With the evidence shown, you have disregarded what was shown, argued against it & so on and so on. So it’s not our logic that is at fault.

You ether just want to argue or you lack the IQ to understand what was plainly explained or shown.
That of above was not an insult.

At this point of time, I hold up my open palms to you at shoulder height and say “Whatever Dude!” because I have no idea what your after or what you lack in understanding.

Normally, even though it’s not a 100% lock in truth, but, often enough, if everyone disagrees with you, your probably wrong by far and large.

So, “Whatever Dude! Whatever!”
 
Yes everyone for 7 pages have been telling me how adding 50 cid (not a trivial amount) would gain NO perceivable amount of horsepower (in this eg.). Oh wait that was me and they been arguing the opposite, added displacement equals added hp. This shows fault in your guys logic, you don't want to answer cause this shows you could be wrong.

The answer isn’t a simple “yes cubic inches makes power”. Rat Bastid, rumblefish360, and many others have explained and answered the question quite well.
 
The answer isn’t a simple “yes cubic inches makes power”. Rat Bastid, rumblefish360, and many others have explained and answered the question quite well.

All that is explained, is what i stated in my OP in the 1st sentence, I already know this,
That not what I'm asking for to be answered

But let me clarify what I mean, I understand if you raise torque at any
Rpm at that rpm hp will also raise. Torque is obviously heavily related to displacement

And

Torque is basically one powerstroke and hp is the sum of all the powerstrokes added up over time.
So obviously displacement has a huge impact on one powerstroke and only has one powerstroke to do it.

So yes displacement make torque and torque is a major part of hp, what I'm looking would hard to isolate on a dyno and hard to put into a question. But It's based on a lot of people here think stroking or building a 360 over a 318 etc... Automatically makes more hp with similar top end. My question is how ? Or another way of saying it why if the smaller engine does make less what stopped from turning more rpms to make up the difference since it has a top end to support that much hp ?

If you add displacement or build bigger displacement you add torque you can't say the same with hp, torque is a (guesstimation) 80% cid 20% top end and hp is probably opposite ratio.

If someone explained this I missed it.



Rat Bastid Is a hp rpm guy not a torque stroker guy didn't see him going against what i'm asking.
 
I don’t know how to explain, show and prove it.

Good thing to base I'm wrong on


Normally, even though it’s not a 100% lock in truth, but, often enough,

Fair enough, but when people pushing strokers and larger cid as 100% guarantee
to more hp but if don't happen 100% of the time then that's misleading advice is which what I'm trying to get to the bottom of so we can inform better, It's not I'm right you're wrong type thing if I'm wrong I'll just adjust my build philosophy.


if everyone disagrees with you, your probably wrong by far and large.

People are answering a general does cid make power, Everyone keeps telling me which I already stated in the OP and said I know and not what I'm asking.

So, “Whatever Dude! Whatever!”

I tried to stop this debate between us pages ago, but you kept adding so I thought you wanted to discuss it more.
 
lot of people here think stroking or building a 360 over a 318 etc... Automatically makes more hp with similar top end.
Correct, it does, we have seen it here many times.

My question is how ?
As previously explained… More air and fuel create a bigger bang to produce more torque. More torque over the rpm range which also produces more HP over the range.
Or another way of saying it why if the smaller engine does make less what stopped from turning more rpms to make up the difference since it has a top end to support that much hp ?
[/QUOE]
As previously explained;
The size of the engine, if being pushed to maximum power levels as it’s limits in the parts everywhere.
Backing it down to a street machine engine, the basic bore and stroke are limiters of power. Skip the cam and top end for now.

Bore is HP limited or producing, stroke is torque limited or producing. For the most part, this is the basic way it works. One will feed the other partially. A bigger bore engine will produce more torque and a bigger stroke engine will produce more HP.

The stroke length is a helping but not in concrete measuring item that will have a operating rpm band where it works the best. As you often label the stroke of YYY good in a certain rpm range of AAA & a crank throw of ZZZ good in between BBB, which is only true in a extremely narrow and defined area under very certain circumstances only. The rest of the engine has yet to come into play.

If you add displacement or build bigger displacement you add torque you can't say the same with hp,
Yes you can as previously explained and shown.
YOU! Just said it yourself earlier!

torque is a (guesstimation) 80% cid 20% top end and hp is probably opposite ratio.
I don’t know how you come up with this.
 
Good thing to base I'm wrong on
That statement is s a pile of shot and you know it because it is an outright admission from myself, not a statement of proof.




Fair enough, but when people pushing strokers and larger cid as 100% guarantee
to more hp but if don't happen 100% of the time then that's misleading advice is which what I'm trying to get to the bottom of so we can inform better, It's not I'm right you're wrong type thing if I'm wrong I'll just adjust my build philosophy.
Everyone has put up videos, shown and explained this to you but your the only one missing it. As far as I know.


People are answering a general does cid make power, Everyone keeps telling me which I already stated in the OP and said I know and not what I'm asking.
Sure it is, you just stated it above.



I tried to stop this debate between us pages ago, but you kept adding so I thought you wanted to discuss it more.
I’m up for talking about it but I just don’t know how to explain it any differently to you to have you understand.
The biggest thing I see here is you keep twisting the thread around between things.

In one sentence, re ask your question of exactly what you want to know, exactly.
 
You know 273 has a point, and I’m kinda curious myself, but I think it’s a different question then his first question. I know a lot more about big blocks then small blocks, idk how much is similar. If you can get a 318 cheaper then a 360 and you plan on a stroker anyway, is there really a difference between starting out with the 318 over the 360?

I know on a big block, using a 400 is good because of the bigger bore, but then you run into piston skirt issues, which kinda makes a 440 better…unless I’m wrong lol
 
The engine masters video of the 360 vs the 408 clearly showed the stroker making more power in torque and HP.
They used all the same parts except the crank and pistons which make up the CID.
 
You know 273 has a point, and I’m kinda curious myself, but I think it’s a different question then his first question. I know a lot more about big blocks then small blocks, idk how much is similar. If you can get a 318 cheaper then a 360 and you plan on a stroker anyway, is there really a difference between starting out with the 318 over the 360?

I know on a big block, using a 400 is good because of the bigger bore, but then you run into piston skirt issues, which kinda makes a 440 better…unless I’m wrong lol
The difference between stroking the 318 vs the 340 vs the 360 is only bore size. The bigger bore has more potential to make more HP. Because of the smaller bore size of the 360 and smaller yet 318, the 340 block has the best HP and torque production ability. Just the reverse for less power.
 
You know 273 has a point, and I’m kinda curious myself, but I think it’s a different question then his first question. I know a lot more about big blocks then small blocks, idk how much is similar. If you can get a 318 cheaper then a 360 and you plan on a stroker anyway, is there really a difference between starting out with the 318 over the 360?

I know on a big block, using a 400 is good because of the bigger bore, but then you run into piston skirt issues, which kinda makes a 440 better…unless I’m wrong lol

I left my original question kind of vague wanted to see where people would take it.
I mainly said what it wasn't about. But being vague I'm getting mainly what it wasn't suppose to be about :) it's inspired by another post where a guy ask how much hp will he gain stroking his 360 with same top end.
 
@Cheapsunglasses

Cost aside and we will pretend all parts are not only free but on a shelf that your standing in front of.

We have a 350, 361, 383 & a 400 inch low deck set of blocks. Build each one how ever you want it but all the blocks will use the same parts from stroked block to stroked block. Which one is making the best HP and Tq.?
 
The engine masters video of the 360 vs the 408 clearly showed the stroker making more power in torque and HP.
They used all the same parts except the crank and pistons which make up the CID.

Yes and that's where I got this info from and keep asking where's the hp
Episode 18 right?


410 - 362.5 hp under the curve avg, 1.05hp/1.17lbs-ft per cid, +2% peak hp
360 - 361.2 hp under the curve avg, 1.18hp/1.23lbs-ft per cid

410 - 3000=250 3500=310 4000=365 4500=399 5000=420 5500=431hp
360 - 3300=252 3800=315 4300=360 4800=399 5300=418 5800=423hp
 
In one sentence, re ask your question of exactly what you want to know, exactly.

So my question is where's the hp gain ?
And why didn't it happen here ?



410 - 362.5 hp under the curve avg, 1.05hp/1.17lbs-ft per cid, +2% peak hp
360 - 361.2 hp under the curve avg, 1.18hp/1.23lbs-ft per cid

410 - 3000=250 3500=310 4000=365 4500=399 5000=420 5500=431hp
360 - 3300=252 3800=315 4300=360 4800=399 5300=418 5800=423hp
 
I left my original question kind of vague wanted to see where people would take it.
I mainly said what it wasn't about. But being vague I'm getting mainly what it wasn't suppose to be about :) it's inspired by another post where a guy ask how much hp will he gain stroking his 360 with same top end.
I seen that thread and did not comment on it (?) because it was going all over the place.
It’s a shame I’m not a clairvoyant dyno master mind.
Straight OOTB, if the bore want increased, (pay attention here!) *I’d Guess* a small amount of HP but a lot more torque. When I say small, build dependent, the top end parts and camshaft play a huge roll and I can not predict the amount of HP gain.

If all that was swapped around was the B&S, what are the other components & how well do they respond to the B&S change. TF heads will respond much better than OE 1/88/1.60 stock heads and Victors will respond much better Han the TF’s.

This is still ignoring the camshaft and rockers, intake and exhaust from tip to tip.

It’s nearly impossible to find such tests on video and print. But the ones videoed and in print always showed a gain.
 
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