How to "rough in" front end alignment after rebuild?

[plumkrazee70]

I usually take it as a good sign when businesses have to book you days or weeks out. When I spoke with him on the phone, I asked if it would help if I brought specs for him, he said no need, the numbers are all in his head. And that he's been working on these cars since they were new.
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Careful, while he may have numbers in his head, they are probably for bias ply tires. Had the same thing happen to me,.great old timer, but I brought my specs in he said why would you want these specs and I replied because the car isn't stock. He didn't have much of an answer after that.

 

[pishta]

I think if your doing this at home, it would be ideal to do it with some beater rims on it, jacked up on stands under the LCA's. This would allow you to dial in the camber/caster/toe without fighting the tire scrub? Would make alignment a breeze as you would have a straight reference across the straight rim lip (Not an inconsistant tire wall or a special hub fixture), would make tie rod sleeve adjustments by hand and give you better access to the UCA bushings...?

 

[DionR]

You don't need turnplates, they simply allow you to take the wheels with the steering unlocked and turn them in and out 15* without getting up and reaching into the car or walking around it.

I'm starting to think the use of turning plates might actually be necessary depending on the surface the tire is sitting on and the size of the tire.

Years ago I aligned my Duster using these methods - front bolt out, rear bolt in, adjust the rear bolt to get a reasonable camber, then a tape measure to adjust toe. Car drove great for years, never did see an alignment shop. This was with a 14" ralley wheel and tire in the dirt.

But recently I have been chasing my tail on this thing. I have 17x8 wheels with 245/45R17's on it and am now in a shop with a concrete floor. I think my issue is that things are just too stiff to accurately see the change when I adjust my toe. Pretty sure some turning plates to reduce the resistance are the key (for me).

I had planned to pick up some mason boards and put some grease or something between them. But I like the idea of trying some wax paper first.

 

[rklein383]

I used a digital gauge doing my alignments by cutting 1/2 steel square tubing to lay against my wheels using small bungee cords to hold it in place or you can just hold them in place. The digital gauge has a magnet on one side which will adhere to the steel tubing.

 

[72Duster440]

I'm starting to think the use of turning plates might actually be necessary depending on the surface the tire is sitting on and the size of the tire.

Years ago I aligned my Duster using these methods - front bolt out, rear bolt in, adjust the rear bolt to get a reasonable camber, then a tape measure to adjust toe. Car drove great for years, never did see an alignment shop. This was with a 14" ralley wheel and tire in the dirt.

But recently I have been chasing my tail on this thing. I have 17x8 wheels with 245/45R17's on it and am now in a shop with a concrete floor. I think my issue is that things are just too stiff to accurately see the change when I adjust my toe. Pretty sure some turning plates to reduce the resistance are the key (for me).

I had planned to pick up some mason boards and put some grease or something between them. But I like the idea of trying some wax paper first.

I've had good luck with a couple cheap teflon cutting boards with a blob of grease between them.

 

[67Dart273]

Also, righty, don't forget to check into offset upper bushings to give you more caster. I haven't checked heck I don't even know if you can GET them anymore

A check check, Mancini shows them

Moog Offset Front Control Arm Bushings

 

[Darter6]

it would not work with wheels that you can not access the dust cap when they are installed, or am I missing something?

They make adapters that clip to the outer rim with a round plate in the center for the magnetic gauge.Not my favorite but they work.
Mine came from Mac Tools but I believe Jegs or Summit has them. Cost is unknown by me.
Before I would use steel wheels exposing the hub with short tires so it was easier to reach the cam bolts.

 

[ACME SS]

I'm starting to think the use of turning plates might actually be necessary depending on the surface the tire is sitting on and the size of the tire.

Years ago I aligned my Duster using these methods - front bolt out, rear bolt in, adjust the rear bolt to get a reasonable camber, then a tape measure to adjust toe. Car drove great for years, never did see an alignment shop. This was with a 14" ralley wheel and tire in the dirt.

But recently I have been chasing my tail on this thing. I have 17x8 wheels with 245/45R17's on it and am now in a shop with a concrete floor. I think my issue is that things are just too stiff to accurately see the change when I adjust my toe. Pretty sure some turning plates to reduce the resistance are the key (for me).

I had planned to pick up some mason boards and put some grease or something between them. But I like the idea of trying some wax paper first.

You are correct that the surface makes a difference. I do my alignments on my 4 post Bendpak and the surface has extremely sharp grit on it which would definately make a difference as would any concrete I have troweled in my life LOL.

 

[ACME SS]

This is exactly how I set up every car that I do.
THIS car.....

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Was wrecked and needed a front stub....

View attachment 1715939097

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I did the work in my garage using floor jacks and jack stands.
When I was done with it, I set the front UCA cams OUT to the fender and the rears IN to the engine. I have not been to a shop for alignment but it tracks straight and does not pull to either side.

That is one BAD *** car! Love it!
View attachment 1715939100

 

[Righty Tighty]

Lots of great discussion and advice so far. I picked up a couple HDPE cutting boards for $1.97 each and will try gobbing some grease in between. I've seen some interesting methods for checking toe, but it seems to me the simplest might be the string method, so I'm going to try that first.

I think the camber gauge will be easy enough to use, especially with the included instructions and after watching a few tutorials online. Let's do this!

Also, righty, don't forget to check into offset upper bushings to give you more caster. I haven't checked heck I don't even know if you can GET them anymore

A check check, Mancini shows them

Moog Offset Front Control Arm Bushings

Thanks for the info. I've already pressed in new bushings, so I'm committed to these at the moment. I'll look into the offsets if I find I have issues down the road

 

[Righty Tighty]

The cheap cutting board trick worked like a charm, so for $8 and a handful of grease, I'm sold on that idea.

I also tried the string method for measuring toe, and it worked, but halfway into it I realized that since my rear tires are wider than my fronts, that the plane created by the string coming from the rears was inaccurate. In other words, the string coming from the rears was already at an angle since it had to come in to meet the thinner tires up front.

If I set toe-in to 1/16"-1/8", the actual toe-in would've been much more with the string being like that, so I set it at 0 for now. I set camber to -.5 and I'll check caster when I can drive it to my shop and have more room to turn the wheels. It's very tight in my garage at the moment. All in all this was MUCH easier than I thought it was going to be, thanks to all the help given here. In fact, this was probably one of the easier tasks I've done.

 

[67Dart273]

The ACCURATE way to set toe is to make yourself a scratch device, AKA a nail through a board that you can hold in one place accurately. Jack the tire up a small amount under the lower arm so you can spin it. Hold your marker device down, and scratch the tire in two places, 1/2 turn apart. "Somewhere in the middle" does not matter where, as long as the scratch device does not move. This creates "a plane" through the tire.

Now with the tires on the ground and your marks horizontal front--to rear, either use a helper with a tape to measure front and rear of the tires, or else build yourself a gauge. A simple sliding trammel gauge with a fixed nail on one end, sliding nail on the other so you can hold it to the tire marks, measure that(or mark it on the gauge) then do the opposite end of the tire and compare the difference.

Does not need to be this elaborate:

Tire scribing

This is similar to my tire scribe, which you can build. I got this one with the toe gauge. LOL---I had to cut that toe gauge way way down, as it turned out to be made for trucks and way too tall. Could not tell that from the photos in the auction!!!

 

[67Dart273]

The key to caster camber, is, you don't need much (tilted in at top) camber. You want to start with the a arms with the balls "all the way back" AKA the front adjuster pushing the arm back, and the rear one pulling the arm back. This is max caster. Then diddle them to give you a bit of camber. Even zero camber "will work" with some cars and you don't need much

The more camber you have, the less caster you can have, so you have to "find a happy" compromise. Again, this is where the Moog offset bushings are a help

 

[Righty Tighty]

Thanks Del, I’ll fashion something together as a scratch device.

give you better access to the UCA bushings...?

This is the only thing that was at all difficult. Accessing the cam bolts by reaching into the wheel wells up and over the tires was annoying. Unless they’re installed backwards and the head of the bolt is supposed to be in the engine compartment?

During the adjustment, I thought of your suggestion and thought having a bare rim resting on the cutting boards may have made it a little easier.

 

[DionR]

The cheap cutting board trick worked like a charm, so for $8 and a handful of grease, I'm sold on that idea.
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Does it matter that the overall attitude of the car is changed if you stack the cutting board "turning plates" under the front tires and don't raise the rear by an equal amount?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Oh wow, great question! I hadn’t considered that.

 

[Righty Tighty]

I’m thinking it may be a factor in measuring caster since the tilt is forward/rear as opposed to side to side for camber? Does anyone have any input?

 

[Kern Dog]

You can't actually directly measure caster. The steering is ran full left and full right, then the caster is calculated from the "sweep".

 

[Righty Tighty]

Does it matter if the front wheels are raised 3/4” on the makeshift plates, since the gauge I’m using has the bubble levels? Or not, because I’m measuring the difference in the wheel turning left to right, and not the actual level?

 

[rklein383]

The cheap cutting board trick worked like a charm, so for $8 and a handful of grease, I'm sold on that idea.
View attachment 1715940055
I also tried the string method for measuring toe, and it worked, but halfway into it I realized that since my rear tires are wider than my fronts, that the plane created by the string coming from the rears was inaccurate. In other words, the string coming from the rears was already at an angle since it had to come in to meet the thinner tires up front.
View attachment 1715940058
If I set toe-in to 1/16"-1/8", the actual toe-in would've been much more with the string being like that, so I set it at 0 for now. I set camber to -.5 and I'll check caster when I can drive it to my shop and have more room to turn the wheels. It's very tight in my garage at the moment. All in all this was MUCH easier than I thought it was going to be, thanks to all the help given here. In fact, this was probably one of the easier tasks I've done.

You don’t move the string to contact the front tires. What I did is use fishing string and a couple of heavy jack stands a couple of feet past each tire. Move the front jack stand sideways until the measurement from front and rear sides of the rear wheel are the same. This establishes a straight line relative to the rear wheels. Now you can adjust the tie rod to bring the front wheel 1/2 the desired toe in. You check this by measuring from front and back of the front wheel to the string. Repeat on the other side.

 

[Righty Tighty]

You don’t move the string to contact the front tires. What I did is use fishing strong and a couple of heavy jack stands a couple of feet past each tire. Move the front jack stand sideways until the measurement from front and rear sides of the rear wheel are the same. This establishes a straight line relative to the rear wheels. Now you can adjust the tie rod to bring the front wheel 1/2 the desired toe in. You check this by measuring from front and back of the front wheel to the string. Repeat on the other side.

Ahhh, thank you so much for the clarification. Clearly I misunderstood the process. Luckily, it’s so easy that I can redo it fairly quickly.

 

[Ironracer]

Rotating your cam bolts the same amount front and rear will change the camber only.
Rotating only one cam bolt front or rear will change caster AND camber.
Rotating the front cam out (away from the engine compartment) and rotating the rear cam IN the same amount will change caster. Now in both cases though you will affect the camber some.
The science is not exact. The factory specs always gives you a range + or - and really if you are close to the spec range you are good to go.
As far as a "Close enough,ruff in,till I get it to the alignment rack" I can give you a step by step if you

 

[Ironracer]

Actually for not much more work you can align it yourself and NOT take it to the "professionals" who have suffered derision over the years, here, because they don't understand these old girls nor the difference between original specs and "radial" specs

Need a driveway alignment advice after suspension overhaul- just good enough to get it to the shop?

WHAT YOU NEED

1...A flat level surface, garage floor, etc. I don't have this, I block up my trailer level and use it for a rack
2....Front tire turning plates. google. Many ways to do, including greased sheet metal or salt between them.
3....an accurate angular tilt indicator, and you can buy these many places now. You need to attach this accurately to the front hub or front wheel and use it to set camber (in/ out tilt) and caster, which is figured, easy math, from two camber readings
4....A way to set toe. Crackedback on here has suggested nothing more than soda cans jacking up a pair of 2x4's layed across the tire so they are near spindle level, so you can measure across the car, front to back of the boards. Toe is simply the difference between front and rear of the tires, of course front is less

You set ride height first, caster/ camber together, and often you have to diddle them. You want the spindle tilted BACK at the front, so you want the upper A arm adjustments pushing the front of the arm OUT, and the rear IN. Diddle it to get best compromise between caster and camber

Use the "skosh chart" in the All-par article "turn of the screw"

Turn of the screw: front end alignment for performance...


Skosh chart

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My old Ammco caster camber gauge. A camber gauge does not actually MEASURE caster. They measure the tilt, which is camber and it is essentially a circular slide rule which calculates caster from two angular tire readings. IT IS SIMPLE

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Example of a tilt "camber" gauge

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If you want to buy a "real" caster camber gauge, google Longacre. They are decent, I'm told. Or look for a used one locally on C/L etc

My modified ebay one man toe gage. You mark the tires by rotating against a scratch device, which marks them and generates a plane Essentially it is just a bar with two adjustable nails so you can "one man" measure accurately

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I don't get it. What do You bolt it down, ( the 2x4 with the nail) so it doesn't walk around? I've never seen it done....Sorry to Bother Ya Dell. Or is it better to run a string/ laser off the rear tires as a benchmark. And measure in from that?

 

[Mojoe9955]

As I'm a carpenter, I use a level for caster/camber and string line for toe in. Cookie sheets with a little Pam on them under the wheels make the adjustments a "piece of cake"

 

[Ironracer]

As I'm a carpenter, I use a level for caster/camber and string line for toe in. Cookie sheets with a little Pam on them under the wheels make the adjustments a "piece of cake"

Cool Brother Woodworker! So, do you use a 2' level on the tire, and string line from the rears at midpoint? To a fixed point, ahead of the front wheen and tire assembly, then back pull off the string to get a # for the front toe in? I'm one of them " hands in kinda guys"