That's why you need an air space. The attic needs ventilation between the insulated space and the roof.
Insulating a metal shop?
- Thread starter ESP47
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6PakBee
Well-Known Member
You can have three feet of insulation and sooner or later the interior temperature will equal the exterior temperature. I studded out my shop and have 14" of fiberglass in the roof and 8" of fiberglass in the walls. Even then I had to put in a 28,000 BTU/hr wall air conditioner to make it tolerable on 100 degree days. This is for a work area of 25' X 50'.
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Lenni
Member
I would think the manufacturers of these buildings should have recommendations on how to insulate. Question, what does everyone think that the best way to go is? A wood frame building or all meatal?
6PakBee
Well-Known Member
I'd go metal because you don't lose the headroom with a conventional wood truss ceiling.
So, I assume no one considers me working under a big Tx. pine on the dirt is "high tech!??"
Yea, I have a floor jack and a sheet of plywood.
Yea, I have a floor jack and a sheet of plywood.
fastmerc
Active Member
ESP47,
I'm (painfully!) going thru this process AFTER moving all of my shite in.....having an empty shop and 2-4 extra hands would be fantastic! But when I was exited from my job earlier than planned.....had to SHOVEL stuff when we moved! It's all good.....just not ideal when doing this work. EMPTY or near BUILDING IS BEST and FASTEST!!!!
First, the foam board ISO type, is highly recommended by many..... There is a guy out in Fairfield that sells "seconds" on Craigslist. Probably 30% of Home Depot cost. Some can be a little banged up....but he's not averse to haggling on bits like that! Plus you are going to likely need some odd pieces anyway, so cutting off one bad edge is no biggie. 1" should be good for you....but he has all the way up to 2" and maybe more.
I made up tin spacers to keep the insulation about 3/4" off of the tin, out of HD tin 2x4 studs..... I'm probably WAY TOO ADD on this but it works....a LOT of work, but I didn't want to use wood glued in.....as we have termites here.......they love everything wood....although I now kinda doubt that they'd survive on the south facing wall very well....that sun HEATS up that tin and the buggers would likely bake.... But that said, a 3/4" strip of wood material would go MUCH faster than my way....
I am using sheet metal screws and large insulation washers to retain the insulation to the tin pieces that I glued to the wall with "PRO180" or BOSS180.....CRS at the moment....but the stuff is good to 180 degrees!!! Costs a tad more per tube, but what's money at this stage.....ugh! As long as it works, it's worth the extra pesos!!!! Cures in 24 hours and is VERY strong! It will hold up the fairly light ISO board. I put 3 attachment points at each end of the 8' length and 3 in the middle at 4'. So that's a total 9 points holding the stuff in place. Cut 10" to join two pieces, 5" for the center and very ends.
The Right Stuff foam OR Loctite "Tite Foam" Gaps and Cracks, (or "Large Gaps" if you need!) is recommended from my research. The Loctite supposedly yellows less..... and is a little cheaper..... I found it on sale and picked up a couple of cans and have yet to try it out!
Right now, I'm still fighting with my barrier bubble type ceiling stuff to finish that portion while I have borrowed scaffloding (STILL!!!! Has been months, didn't help that wife busted her leg in a squirrel hole....). 15' to go and and then odd stuff... One man job this is not....but I'm slowly progressing........ Have yet to engineer how to fit the stuff up against my fiberglass "sun panels"....due to a 9" gap between the bottom of the purlin and the tin roof..... My insulation for the most part just goes from purlin to purlin.....BUTT light wiring and electrical boxes etc make the job SOOOOO NOT enjoyable!
NOTE TO OTHERS CONSIDERING A NEW BUILDING: IF you have the option of buying insulation pre-installed..... DOOO ITTTT!!!!!!! You will send me spare 340 performance parts later!!
A buddy suggested yanking the roof off of the building and putting the insulation on, then reattach the tin! I scoffed at that idea.....but now.....it doesn't sound so outer space!!!!! You WILL Need scaffolding otherwise.....two 8' pieces works well....three would be closer to heaven!
I'm going to stop now, but send me a PM via the board here and I can get you contact info if you want to talk directly.........
Here are a couple of pics of various.......
OK, pictures are not happening at the moment.....will come back later and try it...... Have a full day with car club holiday dinner tonite! Gotta get prepared.....since I am big kahuna, I need to be ready!
Cheers!
Steve
Metal spacers/installation anchors.
This is area over steps to "balcony". Did not want to walk into insulation with my head every time up the steps..... same with storage areas in rest of area. Fully covered purlins. Only section that this was done, about 9' from wall. Not fun..... Used metal strapping to hold it in place at tops of purlins. Thru studs attaching it on either side.
This was a view from balcony above steps, third row of insulation tapers back down to bottom of purlin. (5' per section)
Ceiling peak vents are going to be covered.... Sun panels are going to be a Beyonce.....still working on figuring out a fairly air tight solution....
Rev A of form to reform metal for wall insulation supports. This failed...... Found that a sheet metal brake made VERY fast work of this step......flatten, hammer new bend, try and get piece now stuck on wood..... I wanted at least a half inch of glue area on tin....vs 1/4" or so as purchased.
I wouldn't say half way there.....but I am on 4th and 5th runs..... need to go back and finish 4th run..... procrastinating due to sun panels and no solution at the time! Still none.....
TMS disease BAD!!!! Shuffle scafolding, move shite.... shuffle scafolding, move shite..... had to McGuyver some more panels to stand on..... old 2x6 pieces I salvaged from an old lean-over-to! Put some rails up to grab onto if I'm going down......slow the descent.....shrink the hospital bill.....!
First wall board I put up. Wife had busted leg and was house bound so I wasn't allowed on scaffolding..... so started working on this. I need to revisit this section and pull ceiling insulation down on ends (instead of turning it up under end purlin/girt. I figured that I needed any moisture to run down wall and not gather in loop in ceiling insulation! Engineering on the fly!
And no, the building and insulation people are no help........ "talk to an insulation specialist"....OK, well who do they talk to???? Crickets.
I have a Varco Pruden building, whose tin pieces are nicely crimped at the bottom. However, not so tight at the bottom that little critters can't crawl in. This is 1/4" screen cut from a crude pattern and squished in place. Don't care about small bugs.....they can live in the space....nothing to eat but other bugs!
I'm (painfully!) going thru this process AFTER moving all of my shite in.....having an empty shop and 2-4 extra hands would be fantastic! But when I was exited from my job earlier than planned.....had to SHOVEL stuff when we moved! It's all good.....just not ideal when doing this work. EMPTY or near BUILDING IS BEST and FASTEST!!!!
First, the foam board ISO type, is highly recommended by many..... There is a guy out in Fairfield that sells "seconds" on Craigslist. Probably 30% of Home Depot cost. Some can be a little banged up....but he's not averse to haggling on bits like that! Plus you are going to likely need some odd pieces anyway, so cutting off one bad edge is no biggie. 1" should be good for you....but he has all the way up to 2" and maybe more.
I made up tin spacers to keep the insulation about 3/4" off of the tin, out of HD tin 2x4 studs..... I'm probably WAY TOO ADD on this but it works....a LOT of work, but I didn't want to use wood glued in.....as we have termites here.......they love everything wood....although I now kinda doubt that they'd survive on the south facing wall very well....that sun HEATS up that tin and the buggers would likely bake.... But that said, a 3/4" strip of wood material would go MUCH faster than my way....
I am using sheet metal screws and large insulation washers to retain the insulation to the tin pieces that I glued to the wall with "PRO180" or BOSS180.....CRS at the moment....but the stuff is good to 180 degrees!!! Costs a tad more per tube, but what's money at this stage.....ugh! As long as it works, it's worth the extra pesos!!!! Cures in 24 hours and is VERY strong! It will hold up the fairly light ISO board. I put 3 attachment points at each end of the 8' length and 3 in the middle at 4'. So that's a total 9 points holding the stuff in place. Cut 10" to join two pieces, 5" for the center and very ends.
The Right Stuff foam OR Loctite "Tite Foam" Gaps and Cracks, (or "Large Gaps" if you need!) is recommended from my research. The Loctite supposedly yellows less..... and is a little cheaper..... I found it on sale and picked up a couple of cans and have yet to try it out!
Right now, I'm still fighting with my barrier bubble type ceiling stuff to finish that portion while I have borrowed scaffloding (STILL!!!! Has been months, didn't help that wife busted her leg in a squirrel hole....). 15' to go and and then odd stuff... One man job this is not....but I'm slowly progressing........ Have yet to engineer how to fit the stuff up against my fiberglass "sun panels"....due to a 9" gap between the bottom of the purlin and the tin roof..... My insulation for the most part just goes from purlin to purlin.....BUTT light wiring and electrical boxes etc make the job SOOOOO NOT enjoyable!
NOTE TO OTHERS CONSIDERING A NEW BUILDING: IF you have the option of buying insulation pre-installed..... DOOO ITTTT!!!!!!! You will send me spare 340 performance parts later!!
A buddy suggested yanking the roof off of the building and putting the insulation on, then reattach the tin! I scoffed at that idea.....but now.....it doesn't sound so outer space!!!!! You WILL Need scaffolding otherwise.....two 8' pieces works well....three would be closer to heaven!I'm going to stop now, but send me a PM via the board here and I can get you contact info if you want to talk directly.........
Here are a couple of pics of various.......
OK, pictures are not happening at the moment.....will come back later and try it...... Have a full day with car club holiday dinner tonite! Gotta get prepared.....since I am big kahuna, I need to be ready!
Cheers!
Steve
Metal spacers/installation anchors.
This is area over steps to "balcony". Did not want to walk into insulation with my head every time up the steps..... same with storage areas in rest of area. Fully covered purlins. Only section that this was done, about 9' from wall. Not fun..... Used metal strapping to hold it in place at tops of purlins. Thru studs attaching it on either side.
This was a view from balcony above steps, third row of insulation tapers back down to bottom of purlin. (5' per section)
Ceiling peak vents are going to be covered.... Sun panels are going to be a Beyonce.....still working on figuring out a fairly air tight solution....
Rev A of form to reform metal for wall insulation supports. This failed...... Found that a sheet metal brake made VERY fast work of this step......flatten, hammer new bend, try and get piece now stuck on wood..... I wanted at least a half inch of glue area on tin....vs 1/4" or so as purchased.
I wouldn't say half way there.....but I am on 4th and 5th runs..... need to go back and finish 4th run..... procrastinating due to sun panels and no solution at the time! Still none.....
TMS disease BAD!!!! Shuffle scafolding, move shite.... shuffle scafolding, move shite..... had to McGuyver some more panels to stand on..... old 2x6 pieces I salvaged from an old lean-over-to! Put some rails up to grab onto if I'm going down......slow the descent.....shrink the hospital bill.....!
First wall board I put up. Wife had busted leg and was house bound so I wasn't allowed on scaffolding..... so started working on this. I need to revisit this section and pull ceiling insulation down on ends (instead of turning it up under end purlin/girt. I figured that I needed any moisture to run down wall and not gather in loop in ceiling insulation! Engineering on the fly!
And no, the building and insulation people are no help........ "talk to an insulation specialist"....OK, well who do they talk to???? Crickets.
I have a Varco Pruden building, whose tin pieces are nicely crimped at the bottom. However, not so tight at the bottom that little critters can't crawl in. This is 1/4" screen cut from a crude pattern and squished in place. Don't care about small bugs.....they can live in the space....nothing to eat but other bugs!
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fastmerc
Active Member
OK, more pic's!
First half of 30ft end wall. 4ft pieces require a little trim at the left side. One of my damaged pieces served to provide upper angled bits nicely! White "ceiling tape" strips are used to hold freshly glued pieces in place. The strips can be reused about three times before the adhesive starts to get dirty.... I did pre-clean all of my walls and girt recesses with a brush and vacuum cleaner. Spiderwebs, dust, and bird nest contributions. ( I did seal up the outer birdie ingress with foam inserts just for that.....but 40years had some buildup! I didn't want this crap to be falling down in the air space between tin and insulation sheeting!
The stuff!
Hmm, thought I had a better pic...... First section with upper and lower pieces started.
I needed more security to get to walls.....with shelving in the way.....car rams worked great! Wood for th rest in a couple of variations. Step on two boards at all times.....one board doesn't instill confidence!!! It's old wood.....!
Another challenge area over the roll up door! Can't have insulation rubbing on this all the time..... Conduit is just on far side of the door, not over top of it. I did rebend some of this....only half inch so not too bad....
More HD tin 2x4's to the rescue! I screwed/glued 10-11ft of these to the horizontal girt at the door top and then attached shorter pieces from the first purlin back to the wall. Gave me about a 2" clearance when door is fully rolled up!
Notched one end to fit over purlin profile. Bottom tab left for screws into purlin.
Slipped/snapped them in place and screwed in from bottom "tab"
Attached at purlin/girt behind door! I chalk marked 5' intervals on the purlins to help align material when placing it! ....one man band....so needed all the guidance I can get!
Anything I could find to hold material up! Bungee cords.....adjustable poles with cross pieces....
Chain was pulled down after I realized I no longer needed it to get engines etc out/in the truck.....because I now have a lift with very long arms that will support hundreds of lbs! Duh! That came to me while I was sleeping......cuz I was gonna cut a hole in the insulation and drop the hook down thru...."just in case" I needed it......
That's all for now!
Cheers!
Steve
First half of 30ft end wall. 4ft pieces require a little trim at the left side. One of my damaged pieces served to provide upper angled bits nicely! White "ceiling tape" strips are used to hold freshly glued pieces in place. The strips can be reused about three times before the adhesive starts to get dirty.... I did pre-clean all of my walls and girt recesses with a brush and vacuum cleaner. Spiderwebs, dust, and bird nest contributions. ( I did seal up the outer birdie ingress with foam inserts just for that.....but 40years had some buildup! I didn't want this crap to be falling down in the air space between tin and insulation sheeting!
The stuff!
Hmm, thought I had a better pic...... First section with upper and lower pieces started.
I needed more security to get to walls.....with shelving in the way.....car rams worked great! Wood for th rest in a couple of variations. Step on two boards at all times.....one board doesn't instill confidence!!! It's old wood.....!
Another challenge area over the roll up door! Can't have insulation rubbing on this all the time..... Conduit is just on far side of the door, not over top of it. I did rebend some of this....only half inch so not too bad....
More HD tin 2x4's to the rescue! I screwed/glued 10-11ft of these to the horizontal girt at the door top and then attached shorter pieces from the first purlin back to the wall. Gave me about a 2" clearance when door is fully rolled up!
Notched one end to fit over purlin profile. Bottom tab left for screws into purlin.
Slipped/snapped them in place and screwed in from bottom "tab"
Attached at purlin/girt behind door! I chalk marked 5' intervals on the purlins to help align material when placing it! ....one man band....so needed all the guidance I can get!
Anything I could find to hold material up! Bungee cords.....adjustable poles with cross pieces....
Chain was pulled down after I realized I no longer needed it to get engines etc out/in the truck.....because I now have a lift with very long arms that will support hundreds of lbs! Duh! That came to me while I was sleeping......cuz I was gonna cut a hole in the insulation and drop the hook down thru...."just in case" I needed it......
That's all for now!
Cheers!
Steve
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6PakBee
Well-Known Member
"A buddy suggested yanking the roof off of the building and putting the insulation on, then reattach the tin! I scoffed at that idea.....but now.....it doesn't sound so outer space!!!!!"
That's exactly what I did. My purlins are only 8" deep. So I had a contractor screw 4" extensions onto the purlins and then install the interior roof sheeting. They then pulled the roof sheeting off, installed all new insulation (12" in the purlins and 3 1/2" over the purlins), and replaced the existing roof panels using slightly larger new screws. Hasn't been a bit of trouble.
That's exactly what I did. My purlins are only 8" deep. So I had a contractor screw 4" extensions onto the purlins and then install the interior roof sheeting. They then pulled the roof sheeting off, installed all new insulation (12" in the purlins and 3 1/2" over the purlins), and replaced the existing roof panels using slightly larger new screws. Hasn't been a bit of trouble.
fastmerc
Active Member
OK couple of the short wall with upper section shown better, and two from yesterday when I finished up one row of ceiling insulation.
Once I got going on this, it was fairly simple. What also helped is dropping from a full 1" spacer down to a 3/4-ish spacer made fittings behind the steel members in some locations MUCH easier.....so gonna finish the rest of the sheeting installs with 3/4" dimension.
My buddy helped me expand my electrical service box connections from where the prior idiot, I mean owner bodgered it all up. Now it's all to code.....or danged close to it!
This wall is representative of the stuff that I have against the entire 50' length! All needs to be moved to get in to do the insulation along the bottom. Not too bad for doing the ceiling...only need to clean off the top..... "Corrected" electrical will be rerun under 7' high wall girt. Easy peasy once the shelves are moved out about 3-4'! This is all to be replaced by old Orchard Supply gondola shelving, and custom work benches. A larger 65" Craigslist special TV will get rafterized at some point......suspended.... AND if I can get my collective shite together, a lot of the spare parts will get stashed in a shiny almost new 20' container with more gondola shelving in it. Get it out of this shop...... But gotta find a dealer with what I need. Or think I need..... Note odd cuts in one sheet of insulation....damaged piece.....put to good use!
Fasteners for ceiling material. 3/4" or 1" self tapping screws do the holding. Wall material washers are regular thin tin or stainless or such. Easy does it with the screw guns!!!!
Last piece I put up yesterday. This was a 18' piece that overlapped the 3' opening between the top two purlins and is where a peak vent lives. See next pic.
There is a 15' piece on the last three purlins and wall girt. The 18' piece crosses over the 3' gap and is attached overlaping the 15' material by 3". I chose to leave this area accessible by simply removing the row of fasteners so that the 3' piece could "flap" down for any access to peak needed. Good idea? Can only hope so, AND that I never need to do that!!! Next guy......!
You can also see where I am folding the end down.....wall insulation will come up and cover this. It will be trimmed back a tad to fit over tin spacers where needed..... Any gap at top of wall insulation to ceiling will be foamed..... I do need to backtrack and do this treatment to the first 24' that I installed! Rev B!!! ENGINEER AS YOU GO! Ugh.
Cheers!
Steve
Once I got going on this, it was fairly simple. What also helped is dropping from a full 1" spacer down to a 3/4-ish spacer made fittings behind the steel members in some locations MUCH easier.....so gonna finish the rest of the sheeting installs with 3/4" dimension.
My buddy helped me expand my electrical service box connections from where the prior idiot, I mean owner bodgered it all up. Now it's all to code.....or danged close to it!
This wall is representative of the stuff that I have against the entire 50' length! All needs to be moved to get in to do the insulation along the bottom. Not too bad for doing the ceiling...only need to clean off the top..... "Corrected" electrical will be rerun under 7' high wall girt. Easy peasy once the shelves are moved out about 3-4'! This is all to be replaced by old Orchard Supply gondola shelving, and custom work benches. A larger 65" Craigslist special TV will get rafterized at some point......suspended.... AND if I can get my collective shite together, a lot of the spare parts will get stashed in a shiny almost new 20' container with more gondola shelving in it. Get it out of this shop...... But gotta find a dealer with what I need. Or think I need..... Note odd cuts in one sheet of insulation....damaged piece.....put to good use!
Fasteners for ceiling material. 3/4" or 1" self tapping screws do the holding. Wall material washers are regular thin tin or stainless or such. Easy does it with the screw guns!!!!
Last piece I put up yesterday. This was a 18' piece that overlapped the 3' opening between the top two purlins and is where a peak vent lives. See next pic.
There is a 15' piece on the last three purlins and wall girt. The 18' piece crosses over the 3' gap and is attached overlaping the 15' material by 3". I chose to leave this area accessible by simply removing the row of fasteners so that the 3' piece could "flap" down for any access to peak needed. Good idea? Can only hope so, AND that I never need to do that!!! Next guy......!
You can also see where I am folding the end down.....wall insulation will come up and cover this. It will be trimmed back a tad to fit over tin spacers where needed..... Any gap at top of wall insulation to ceiling will be foamed..... I do need to backtrack and do this treatment to the first 24' that I installed! Rev B!!! ENGINEER AS YOU GO! Ugh.
Cheers!
Steve
ESP47
Well-Known Member
Wow thanks I really appreciate all the info. I saw that guy from Fairfield on marketplace and there's also a guy closer to me but he seems a little sketchy. The government has a 30% tax credit up to $1200 I believe so if their prices aren't lower than that, then I might as well just buy them close to home at a big box store.
fastmerc
Active Member
I liked the 50%+ discount!
There was something about the tax credit that I didn't go for.....read the fine print!!!
Off to the shop! Still putting up ceiling! 2.3 more rows to finish before I get the the "hmmm gotta think about this some more" sections!
Steve
There was something about the tax credit that I didn't go for.....read the fine print!!!
Off to the shop! Still putting up ceiling! 2.3 more rows to finish before I get the the "hmmm gotta think about this some more" sections!
Steve
Moparpuller
Well-Known Member
Can second this. A buddy built a 40x56 and spray foamed the walls and had blow in for the ceiling. A/c hardly runs in the summer. I think he had 4000 in the spray foam with application
I had mine insulated during the build, 4” fiberglass insulation with backing. I don’t know exactly what the backing material is, it’s reinforced and pretty durable. Makes a big difference, the roll up doors are not insulated and the difference standing next to them vs the insulation is dramatic.
Nice shop!
ESP47
Well-Known Member
Any idea what brand it is?
fastmerc
Active Member
There are a number of DIY spray kits available....as close as Home Depot, probably Lowes. I got a catalog with my "spacer adhesive" from a place called J&R Products Inc. WOW is all I can say.....packed full of scrapers and shavers and blowers and everything that you'd want! Probably at full scale prices too.....
I don't know what the "material data sheets" say about installing this DIY spray directly on tin....but if science is real....and rust can't happen in the absence of air and water......well then spraying this directly on the tin would be OK! I just wonder about the temp of the tin in direct contact with the sun.....how well would the stuff handle this temp!? Pretty danged hot! But do some research and ask questions.
One thing about the fiber glass insulation is that it is bascially some fibers in a bag displacing air.....but not much....air is still in there.....and as we know air transfers temperatures..... or slows it down a little bit.
I'm suggesting that this type of "batting" insulation is a sort of stop gap measure. The plastic film on the rolls likely does the big job of stopping moisture movement..... The air amongst the fibers slows down the heat transfer but doesn't block it like closed cell (spray) foam or the ISO board mentioned above.
BUTT, putting this stuff up is still a wise choice before you move in!!!!
Shop looks nice!!!! I vaguely remember the day my shop was empty.......!
Steve
I don't know what the "material data sheets" say about installing this DIY spray directly on tin....but if science is real....and rust can't happen in the absence of air and water......well then spraying this directly on the tin would be OK! I just wonder about the temp of the tin in direct contact with the sun.....how well would the stuff handle this temp!? Pretty danged hot! But do some research and ask questions.
One thing about the fiber glass insulation is that it is bascially some fibers in a bag displacing air.....but not much....air is still in there.....and as we know air transfers temperatures..... or slows it down a little bit.
I'm suggesting that this type of "batting" insulation is a sort of stop gap measure. The plastic film on the rolls likely does the big job of stopping moisture movement..... The air amongst the fibers slows down the heat transfer but doesn't block it like closed cell (spray) foam or the ISO board mentioned above.
BUTT, putting this stuff up is still a wise choice before you move in!!!!
Shop looks nice!!!! I vaguely remember the day my shop was empty.......!
Steve
Not off hand, it was through the building manufacturer I believe and I don’t think it’s called out by brand in the quote just its R value/thickness. I’ll take a look tomorrow when I’m home
The science is real, rust is oxidation and can’t occur if there’s no oxygen for the reaction.
But that doesn’t mean that any spray on foam will work directly on any metal. All of those metal building panels are painted/coated/galvanized, so whether or not it a particular foam is ok for that panel will depend on the chemical make up of the foam and the specific coating on the metal. And yeah, the foam would have to be able to withstand the temperatures of the metal panels or it would break down/separate.
Rust would also be a pretty minor concern, again, all of those panels are treated somehow and of course the outside of the panel is still exposed to air.
Uh, a closed air space is actually a VERY good insulator. It’s literally why insulation is made the way it is. Fiber fill sleeping bags and jackets work on the same principle. So do firefighting turnouts, they’re bulky to trap air because it provides additional insulation. The fact that the material won’t burn is only one part, because while the material won’t burn it still gets hot enough itself to burn the person wearing it.
Yes, the facing on the insulation is the vapor barrier, that’s literally how it’s designed.
Closed cell foam doesn’t “block” heat transfer any more than any other kind of insulation. It follows exactly the same thermodynamic process that any other insulation does. It has its own thermodynamic constant, and that combined with its thickness is how you calculate the energy transfer. It may be better or worse than other insulation types but it doesn’t “block” energy transfer.
There are benefits and drawbacks to both kinds, with the spray in insulation if you ever have to replace a panel, repair the building, repair the wiring or plumbing etc - good luck. Depending on the chemical make up of the foam it will also break down at some point, how long it lasts will depend on the chemical stability of the foam itself. Pros and cons for both, with the rolled insulation it’s a lot easier to install it during construction, afterwards makes it more time consuming.
ESP47
Well-Known Member
There are a number of DIY spray kits available....as close as Home Depot, probably Lowes. I got a catalog with my "spacer adhesive" from a place called J&R Products Inc. WOW is all I can say.....packed full of scrapers and shavers and blowers and everything that you'd want! Probably at full scale prices too.....
I don't know what the "material data sheets" say about installing this DIY spray directly on tin....but if science is real....and rust can't happen in the absence of air and water......well then spraying this directly on the tin would be OK! I just wonder about the temp of the tin in direct contact with the sun.....how well would the stuff handle this temp!? Pretty danged hot! But do some research and ask questions.
One thing about the fiber glass insulation is that it is bascially some fibers in a bag displacing air.....but not much....air is still in there.....and as we know air transfers temperatures..... or slows it down a little bit.
I'm suggesting that this type of "batting" insulation is a sort of stop gap measure. The plastic film on the rolls likely does the big job of stopping moisture movement..... The air amongst the fibers slows down the heat transfer but doesn't block it like closed cell (spray) foam or the ISO board mentioned above.
BUTT, putting this stuff up is still a wise choice before you move in!!!!
Shop looks nice!!!! I vaguely remember the day my shop was empty.......!
Steve
I saw those kits but the amount of kits you'd need to purchase for a 30x50x12 building is a lot.
I've been reading so much conflicting information about insulation that it's making my head spin.
If I wind up doing the foam board insulation with a 1" air gap, do you think it's best to use some spray foam to seal up the air the best I can in the shop corners where I can see some light coming through or should I just seal up part of it but leave some spots open so air can travel in and out?
The 1" air gap and the reflective side of the foam board should reflect a good amount of heat into that space. I'm not sure if allowing that air to flow out is better or keeping it trapped in there is better. What do you think?
Manuel
Well-Known Member
I thought at some time this would come up. I have a 3,000 sq. ft. shop so the roof and upper half of the building I insulated with the manufacture insulation, the lower half of the walls I used a 4 3/8" 4'x8' foam board. the foam board came from a roofing company (in your area) it's the material they use on commercial flat roofs. The owner gave me the material for free because he had a whole building full of it and was going to take it to the dump. So I would suggest calling some roofing co. No I don't remember the name of the company but I drove up to Sac, about a three hour drive and loaded my 8'x16' trailer and my pickup bed as high as I could and brought the material home. I used a table saw to cut the foam, it worked well and made a huge difference in the shop.
Honestly I would leave that air space open, during the summer it would allow the air in the space to escape if it heats up to the point that it’s hotter than the outside air. And in the winter it would allow moisture to escape because you could still get condensation on the back of the outer metal panel.
Realistically you won’t make that space airtight anyway so it probably isn't a big deal, but especially for keeping it cool in the summer I'd want somewhere for that hotter air to go. If you were more worried about keeping it warm in the winter it might be a different story, but knowing where you're at I'd be leaving those gaps open.
fastmerc
Active Member
ESP47,
I know the head spinning thing!!!! Micro climates can likely play into the various discussions as well!!! That is my case here! 12 miles north and they have 20 degree higher days in the summer! South of me by 25 or so miles the temps can be up or down by 10-15 degrees.
15 miles as the vultures fly.....it's the Pacific ocean and the temp crazies it has! Cooling winds in the summer and warmer in the winter! Always with the humidity.....
In my case I am trying to control the humidity. Temps are easy.
In many of my readings, likely from the now below zero midwest....the advice is saying to seal seal seal. Isolate the steel members as they transmit cold and heat.
The idea being to keep heat and cold from ingressing. I would seal the cracks and gaps with a foam or pieces of insulation foamed in.....or such. Tape or foam the seams between material is always something recommended.
You're going to seal heat in and cold out part of the year, and heat out and cold in some of the year and the rest of the year it will be perfect!!! Any large gaps I would seal against birds.....and rodents.....with screen. My thinking came down to making a box that doesn't breath, inside a box that does. So the 3/4-1" gap between the tin and my ISO wall boards is for air flow "up" the walls and out the top with natural "as built" gaps. Let natural convection travel the air in the gaps, and circulate air inside the inner box with some sort of fan, electric or solar. I like the latter better! On with the sun, off with the dark! Just gotta find one..... That and a way to hang up a $300 65" SmartTV that I scored off of Craigslist from someone that was upgrading! Need purlin clamps.....
As for the ceiling, "barrier type" insulation is recommended to control the humidity. As this will also hold heat.....which now that your building is insulated, your cement pad will act as a giant temp regulator....will minimize heating your building! So I keep hearing "circulate" the air in the upper part of building to keep things regulated in a sense.... This makes sense to me...... A simple floor fan in the summer makes a difference with no insulation. In the winter it would serve to circulate warm air up high and mix it with cooler air down low..... A simple electric heater would suffice for where you are working at the time...... With the building sealed, that heat would be retained......eventually heating up and will be comfortable!
My dad had an old potbelly wood burning stove in his old wooden garage in MN...no where NEAR air tight or insulated....I recall going out in the morning to start the fire, coming back in the house for a while to let it heat up...and then going out and working in shirtsleeves! Nice melted snow/ice dripping down on you when you're sliding about on a creeper under the car......!!!
You are going to get high temps in the central valley....who knows in the winter! You get whatever blows in from the SF Golden Gate bridge pretty much and what rain blows in from north of the bridge!!!!
If you DO get super high temps that saturate the upper reaches of the building, you could still go with a solar powered exhaust fan on the peak or on and end vent location if you have such a thing. I put such a thing on our house in Santa Clara and it made an immediate difference! I can't put $$ numbers on anything but I noticed that it took longer for the house to heat up in the summer. In the winter it was to serve as a remover of humidity in the attic, which supposedly kept the house colder......not sure about all of that...... I had extended the fan wires to my roof crawl space door, and could just disconnect it by popping one connection loose. I need to check and see if it is still spinning!!!! Been a while....
I would "think" that your area would be less concerned about humidity.
As I was working near my 10' roll up door, I was surprised to feel a large cold breeze on my neck....... a quick look around revealed a HUGE 2-3
gap at my roll up door top! With the door closed! Called a roll up door company about a seal for this......but have not been able to follow thru due to holiday spousal madness.... I owe them some pictures...... Will see what they have to say.....other than some pumped up $$$$ bid to put it in..... I think I can manage that part.....!
Welcome to the circus!!!! I think you're on the right track!
Steve
I know the head spinning thing!!!! Micro climates can likely play into the various discussions as well!!! That is my case here! 12 miles north and they have 20 degree higher days in the summer! South of me by 25 or so miles the temps can be up or down by 10-15 degrees.
15 miles as the vultures fly.....it's the Pacific ocean and the temp crazies it has! Cooling winds in the summer and warmer in the winter! Always with the humidity.....
In my case I am trying to control the humidity. Temps are easy.
In many of my readings, likely from the now below zero midwest....the advice is saying to seal seal seal. Isolate the steel members as they transmit cold and heat.
The idea being to keep heat and cold from ingressing. I would seal the cracks and gaps with a foam or pieces of insulation foamed in.....or such. Tape or foam the seams between material is always something recommended.
You're going to seal heat in and cold out part of the year, and heat out and cold in some of the year and the rest of the year it will be perfect!!!
Any large gaps I would seal against birds.....and rodents.....with screen. My thinking came down to making a box that doesn't breath, inside a box that does. So the 3/4-1" gap between the tin and my ISO wall boards is for air flow "up" the walls and out the top with natural "as built" gaps. Let natural convection travel the air in the gaps, and circulate air inside the inner box with some sort of fan, electric or solar. I like the latter better! On with the sun, off with the dark! Just gotta find one..... That and a way to hang up a $300 65" SmartTV that I scored off of Craigslist from someone that was upgrading! Need purlin clamps.....As for the ceiling, "barrier type" insulation is recommended to control the humidity. As this will also hold heat.....which now that your building is insulated, your cement pad will act as a giant temp regulator....will minimize heating your building! So I keep hearing "circulate" the air in the upper part of building to keep things regulated in a sense.... This makes sense to me...... A simple floor fan in the summer makes a difference with no insulation. In the winter it would serve to circulate warm air up high and mix it with cooler air down low..... A simple electric heater would suffice for where you are working at the time...... With the building sealed, that heat would be retained......eventually heating up and will be comfortable!
My dad had an old potbelly wood burning stove in his old wooden garage in MN...no where NEAR air tight or insulated....I recall going out in the morning to start the fire, coming back in the house for a while to let it heat up...and then going out and working in shirtsleeves! Nice melted snow/ice dripping down on you when you're sliding about on a creeper under the car......!!!
You are going to get high temps in the central valley....who knows in the winter! You get whatever blows in from the SF Golden Gate bridge pretty much and what rain blows in from north of the bridge!!!!
If you DO get super high temps that saturate the upper reaches of the building, you could still go with a solar powered exhaust fan on the peak or on and end vent location if you have such a thing. I put such a thing on our house in Santa Clara and it made an immediate difference! I can't put $$ numbers on anything but I noticed that it took longer for the house to heat up in the summer. In the winter it was to serve as a remover of humidity in the attic, which supposedly kept the house colder......not sure about all of that...... I had extended the fan wires to my roof crawl space door, and could just disconnect it by popping one connection loose. I need to check and see if it is still spinning!!!! Been a while....
I would "think" that your area would be less concerned about humidity.
As I was working near my 10' roll up door, I was surprised to feel a large cold breeze on my neck....... a quick look around revealed a HUGE 2-3
gap at my roll up door top! With the door closed! Called a roll up door company about a seal for this......but have not been able to follow thru due to holiday spousal madness.... I owe them some pictures...... Will see what they have to say.....other than some pumped up $$$$ bid to put it in..... I think I can manage that part.....!
Welcome to the circus!!!! I think you're on the right track!
Steve
Mopar Momzee
Well-Known Member
Closed cell spray foam and avoid all the headache. No matter what region.
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