I really hope you aren't in this hobby for profit, lol... cause if you are... well.
I say build what you want. If you want a clone, build the clone... if you wanna just put the 340 in your car and leave it at that, then go ahead.
Is There Value in Making a 'Clone'.
- Thread starter archlab
- Start date
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I really hope you aren't in this hobby for profit, lol... cause if you are... well.
I say build what you want. If you want a clone, build the clone... if you wanna just put the 340 in your car and leave it at that, then go ahead.
I would use that 340 :cheers: It's calling out to you... do it.
ShowAndGoResto
Well-Known Member
You have all those parts...use em up!.....My customer had a 68 Fastback Formula S as a parts car (hit and rust) for the convertible....he got the convertible as a decent older resto driver. We never changed the interior or top...rotisserie resto of body, installed frame ties....
ShowAndGoResto
Well-Known Member
People want to drive their cars now a days...a clone makes sense....
68 340 030 over 11 to 1 pistons, ported, polished, balanced, blueprinted, rollerized, LD340 intake and Edle carb with names removed, centerforce clutch, frame tied, 373 SureGrip, PS, disc brakes...What a great driving car!!!
I also cloned a yellow 68 Convertible 727 into an 'S' car.....340
68 340 030 over 11 to 1 pistons, ported, polished, balanced, blueprinted, rollerized, LD340 intake and Edle carb with names removed, centerforce clutch, frame tied, 373 SureGrip, PS, disc brakes...What a great driving car!!!
I also cloned a yellow 68 Convertible 727 into an 'S' car.....340
ShowAndGoResto
Well-Known Member
Here's the yellow one I did...Now completed....upgrade with 340/727/323SG
Doing a red/white 69 Dart GT Convertible now...to 340 specs.
Doing a red/white 69 Dart GT Convertible now...to 340 specs.
longarm
Car sold back to original owners
Sell all the stuff you don't need and 440 it.
Bigger is always worth more.
Bigger is always worth more.
The real question is----which do you want to won and drive? I personally would pay more for a 340 motored one than a 318 car. The 318 car isn't a primo car to sell numbers matching. If you're gonna build a motor and have the 340-go for it! Just my opinion. I drive a '69 Dart Gt ragtop that had the original 273 replace by a 340. I bought it because it was a 340-not as valuable as a GTS, but still fun doing burnouts and cruising. It's your car- build it for what you want- Just my opinion. Gib
hemicop
Well-Known Member
I've built 2 clone Hemi Darts and only broke even-but I have to admit I'm happy with that & look at it as they were still just /6 Darts that happened to have 40+ year old technology in them, so where was the value to begi with?
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR.........BUILD THE CAR THE WAY YOU LIKE IT, QUIT WORRYING ABOUT "MAKING MONEY" AND GO ENJOY THE CAR!
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR.........BUILD THE CAR THE WAY YOU LIKE IT, QUIT WORRYING ABOUT "MAKING MONEY" AND GO ENJOY THE CAR!
HemiMark
Well-Known Member
delusional LOL Do it because you want to......you will never double and rarely make a profit unless your Barry White or Chip????
Just my 2 cents:drinkers:
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
I read all of these posts and I agree with everyone which makes what I am about to say ...kinda more of the same... just like a bellybutton
but here goes
1. IF anyone is in this to MAKE money they need immediate induction to a mental hospital. Even the cars on BJ are almost always sold or traded for a LOSS!!! if not break even!! yes 1.5 million can be a loss if you have 2 or 3 into it! And trust me, they pretty much do have more in than what it sells for. Especially if someone did it all for them and most of those BJ folks dont look like they know one end of a screw driver from the other.
2. I live near Woodward just outside Detroit been here All my life 57yrs now grew up racing wrenching watching and doing this.....I can almost tell you by smell/sound what just drove by behind me....BUT to this day I cannot spot a numbers matching car at even 5 MPH!! so I say, IF IT LOOKS HOT and RUNS HOT, IT FREEKIN IS HOT!!! end of story
3 IF you want profit, do not think of your classic in terms of dollars & cents, think of it in terms of driving a slice of history, that can snap your head back thru second gear and is still a really fun way to meet people (especially women) THINK of profit in terms of how much fun it brings you and how many people OOOh & Ahhh at your handiwork, there is tons of "profit" in driving enjoyment and pride of ownership and accomplishment.
4. IF I cant drive it , it aint worth spit to me!!! If you want an investment that you just look at, theres way more money/profit in ART!
5. Really the only difference between a decent "clone" & a "true" formula S
( for example) is that Chrysler assembled one and YOU assembled the other with the exact same parts that Chrysler used...frankly aside from the little tin tag, I dont see any difference.... Parts is Parts, Chrysler does not have any magic dust they sprinkle that makes their formula S superior in any PHYSICAL way. It simply means they identified that particular Barracuda SHELL, the exact same SHELL used for every Barracuda made, to have a 4bbl V8 with a lil stiffer suspension as it went down the line so the humans( like you) that were building it knew what parts to put in/on it, thats it...if you used all the same parts, you are driving a FORMULA S, not a clone made by a different company, a Barracuda assembled by you to Formula S specs is a formula S Barracuda. Take off those little tin tags and I defy anyone to be able to tell the difference!
6. In 1970 Chrysler built approx 652 cuda hemi coupe's....and only 14 cuda hemi convertibles....last year, 2009 I saw a parking lot off Woodward that had roughly 200 plus Mopars, approx 50 of which were 1970 convertible cuda hemi cars.....every one of them, fine as wine...... WHO cares!!! back to my ...original statement....
IF IT LOOKS HOT and RUNS HOT, IT FREEKIN IS HOT!!! followed closely by...if it looks like a Hemi, sounds like a HEMI, runs like a Hemi, is in a 70 cuda convertible... it AINT A DUCK! It's a 70 HEMI CUDA CONVERTIBLE, plain & simple, with or without tags.....the cost to build either was likely exactly the same, just like the parts they both have... same same parts is parts.
7. OK OK OK I will concede if you start out with a very very clean survivor that is virtually rust free and happens to be a 6 banger, it does have a purist value that is more centered on preserving original integrity and will likely draw attention from an enthusiast that has interest in that specific car .I agree.
I also know for every ONE of those particular enthusiasts there are at least 100 that would prefer that car had a 340, 727 & 8.75 355 posi .. so YES you can likely draw decent $$ from the ONE enthusiast .. and should you change the motor to a 340 set up, likely draw decent $$ from any one of the 100 that prefer the 340 config. Personally I would rather have 100 people looking to purchase than trying to find the one purist but that is just me.
Build what you love, love what you build, drive it like you stole it, fill your senses with the power and excitement, enjoy the ride.....that car belongs to YOU....if "they" dont like it, sell it to "them" and they can PAY to make it the way they want it! Otherwise they need to quiet down!! LOL
1. IF anyone is in this to MAKE money they need immediate induction to a mental hospital. Even the cars on BJ are almost always sold or traded for a LOSS!!! if not break even!! yes 1.5 million can be a loss if you have 2 or 3 into it! And trust me, they pretty much do have more in than what it sells for. Especially if someone did it all for them and most of those BJ folks dont look like they know one end of a screw driver from the other.
2. I live near Woodward just outside Detroit been here All my life 57yrs now grew up racing wrenching watching and doing this.....I can almost tell you by smell/sound what just drove by behind me....BUT to this day I cannot spot a numbers matching car at even 5 MPH!! so I say, IF IT LOOKS HOT and RUNS HOT, IT FREEKIN IS HOT!!! end of story
3 IF you want profit, do not think of your classic in terms of dollars & cents, think of it in terms of driving a slice of history, that can snap your head back thru second gear and is still a really fun way to meet people (especially women) THINK of profit in terms of how much fun it brings you and how many people OOOh & Ahhh at your handiwork, there is tons of "profit" in driving enjoyment and pride of ownership and accomplishment.
4. IF I cant drive it , it aint worth spit to me!!! If you want an investment that you just look at, theres way more money/profit in ART!
5. Really the only difference between a decent "clone" & a "true" formula S
( for example) is that Chrysler assembled one and YOU assembled the other with the exact same parts that Chrysler used...frankly aside from the little tin tag, I dont see any difference.... Parts is Parts, Chrysler does not have any magic dust they sprinkle that makes their formula S superior in any PHYSICAL way. It simply means they identified that particular Barracuda SHELL, the exact same SHELL used for every Barracuda made, to have a 4bbl V8 with a lil stiffer suspension as it went down the line so the humans( like you) that were building it knew what parts to put in/on it, thats it...if you used all the same parts, you are driving a FORMULA S, not a clone made by a different company, a Barracuda assembled by you to Formula S specs is a formula S Barracuda. Take off those little tin tags and I defy anyone to be able to tell the difference!
6. In 1970 Chrysler built approx 652 cuda hemi coupe's....and only 14 cuda hemi convertibles....last year, 2009 I saw a parking lot off Woodward that had roughly 200 plus Mopars, approx 50 of which were 1970 convertible cuda hemi cars.....every one of them, fine as wine...... WHO cares!!! back to my ...original statement....
IF IT LOOKS HOT and RUNS HOT, IT FREEKIN IS HOT!!! followed closely by...if it looks like a Hemi, sounds like a HEMI, runs like a Hemi, is in a 70 cuda convertible... it AINT A DUCK! It's a 70 HEMI CUDA CONVERTIBLE, plain & simple, with or without tags.....the cost to build either was likely exactly the same, just like the parts they both have... same same parts is parts.
7. OK OK OK I will concede if you start out with a very very clean survivor that is virtually rust free and happens to be a 6 banger, it does have a purist value that is more centered on preserving original integrity and will likely draw attention from an enthusiast that has interest in that specific car .I agree.
I also know for every ONE of those particular enthusiasts there are at least 100 that would prefer that car had a 340, 727 & 8.75 355 posi .. so YES you can likely draw decent $$ from the ONE enthusiast .. and should you change the motor to a 340 set up, likely draw decent $$ from any one of the 100 that prefer the 340 config. Personally I would rather have 100 people looking to purchase than trying to find the one purist but that is just me.
Build what you love, love what you build, drive it like you stole it, fill your senses with the power and excitement, enjoy the ride.....that car belongs to YOU....if "they" dont like it, sell it to "them" and they can PAY to make it the way they want it! Otherwise they need to quiet down!! LOL
Hey arch, let me put dibs on your formula s stuff. Mine is a true "S" ragtop and would love some stuff for it. Let me know what you got, email me some pics!
thanks
4spd
WOW you are doing some nice work there SHOWNGO!! Those verts are looking sweet!!
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying here .. But you are wrong with this one.
That little tag adds value.
Take 2 identical cars. One a clone, one real . The real one is worth more.
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
No sir it does not add value it only adds COST.....
The car does not look better or run better or go faster or shift smoother or have less rust or last longer.......it simply costs more.
Peel off the tags and part em both out....my guess the $$ difference will be within $100. It is all about perception, and I do not subscribe to the notion that perception is truth. ONLY truth is truth. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
A damn good 340 car tags or not is a damn good 340 car, I am no longer willing to consider spending thousands and thousands more just because of a tag that has a better than 30% chance of being a fake anyway?
I also dont need cable TV or a weatherman to tell me its raining....my lovely bald head does that faster and with more reliable accuracy LOLOLOLOL
great chat!!
The car does not look better or run better or go faster or shift smoother or have less rust or last longer.......it simply costs more.
Peel off the tags and part em both out....my guess the $$ difference will be within $100. It is all about perception, and I do not subscribe to the notion that perception is truth. ONLY truth is truth. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
A damn good 340 car tags or not is a damn good 340 car, I am no longer willing to consider spending thousands and thousands more just because of a tag that has a better than 30% chance of being a fake anyway?
I also dont need cable TV or a weatherman to tell me its raining....my lovely bald head does that faster and with more reliable accuracy LOLOLOLOL
great chat!!
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
Sorry but again you are wrong. A Non clone of equal condition will always be worth more than a clone.
A real performance model has added value . It is what it is.
As far as 30% being fake . Not really .. Sure a person can go out of their way to get a tag made but then they have the vin and title to deal with.
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
well I guess I will just have to settle for being Wrong in your eyes and in your opinion.... I do suggest that you do a lil more homework regarding tags and VINs & such....you may be surprised by what you find... have a great day!
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
It is not my opinion. It is the way it is.
You arguing that that a clone has the same value or worth of a factory performance model is both silly and ignorant.
Sounds like you are mad because you bought a clone thinking it was the real deal.
You arguing that that a clone has the same value or worth of a factory performance model is both silly and ignorant.
Sounds like you are mad because you bought a clone thinking it was the real deal.
2 Darts
A-body Addicted
To answer the question "Is there value in making a clone?", I say yes on three levels. All of which can be quantifed in dollars and cents.
My Demon is essentially a tribute to a car I shared with my siblings while I was in college. It got me around, but I would have preferred some improvements. Instead of being a /6, 904, radio delete, car with pizza cutter whitewalls on rallye rims, I have a moderately tweaked 318, A/C, PS, DB, SG, CD, sitting on 235/60-15 cop car wheels. With the hood closed, it looks the same except for the wheels, radio, and A/C controls. I've had a lot of fun building it up. I expect I'll enjoy it when it emerges from the paint shop and I can finish the process and drive it.
- Monetary: The truth is the "real" thing is worth more than a clone. That said, there is a market for clones. The clone market moves at a lower level than the real market, but it is in lock step with it. If I assign a $ value to my labor, there is no way I'll make money on a decent clone. If I choose to look at my labor as therapy, then it is possible to make a buck or two on a clone.
- Operations: The clone runs and can get groceries, goes down/around the track, or go across the country as well as the real thing did. My $2000 (total invested) daily driver Dart does everything my $18,000 Honda did. I can carry more luggage and two more people with the Dart. I can run into stuff and not hurt the Dart. The Honda would at least need to have the bumper cap repainted. I can actually work on the Dart when repairs are needed. When I get over my head, I will pay a $65/hr mechanic rather than $89/hr to do the work. Because it does not have air bags, insurance on the Dart is slightly higher. The Dart is appreciating slightly while the Honda depreciated from day one. Give the Dart the edge in lower annual operating costs.
- Enjoyment: I do look upon my work on my cars as therapy as well as a learning experience. Looking at actual wrenching as a lab course, call it $60/hr, with research being more like homework. With a shrink going for about $150/hr., the money I put into parts and services is chump change. I also like most of the people I've met though my involvement in the hobby. They're more like psychologists, so call it $100/hr for that. Pride of accomplishment and ownership, plus the joy of driving; priceless.
My Demon is essentially a tribute to a car I shared with my siblings while I was in college. It got me around, but I would have preferred some improvements. Instead of being a /6, 904, radio delete, car with pizza cutter whitewalls on rallye rims, I have a moderately tweaked 318, A/C, PS, DB, SG, CD, sitting on 235/60-15 cop car wheels. With the hood closed, it looks the same except for the wheels, radio, and A/C controls. I've had a lot of fun building it up. I expect I'll enjoy it when it emerges from the paint shop and I can finish the process and drive it.
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
to 68s
First: I never resorted to insults, I view that as the hallmark of a simple mind. ( Silly and Ignorant )
Second: I knew the relative heritage of every classic I have bought or built over the last 25 plus years, which to date numbers 23. none of which ever made me angry, I find only pleasure and pride in my avocation.
Third: It actually sounds like you are proudly defending the ridiculous amount you spent for your numbers matching 68 which today is likely worth far less than when you finished paying for it
Fourth:Obviously not everyone shares your "the way it is" opinion or no one in their right mind would even think of investing 10 cents building up a car that started life as a /6. YET it seems to be the first choice of a far wider audience than the "tag elitists" care to comprehend and it is responsible for generating far more total dollar movement than all the tag cars bolted together ( us news)
Fifth: You have only heard your own voice and message, I have agreed with you countless times that TAG cars cost more. THAT was not my point! nice miss!
Sixth: Please try to recognize that neither of us are considered by anyone as a foremost authority on this subject and therefore our opinions are as our "2Darts" friend states: "My opinions are like my arm pits. I've always got 'em and every once in a while, they'll stink."
summary: My argument was that the sum of the parts is pretty much dead equal the only differentiation was the TAG which offers no additional physical value. I worked for Chrysler in the 70" and 80's and I know what it costs them to build an S car vs a regular 318, the difference is about $35 and the majority of the parts in both cars are identical.
The first recognized "muscle car" was built at a Pontiac dealership in royal oak Michigan, A tempest/LeMans was "pumped up" at Royal Pontiac with parts from other models and later came to be called the GTO. The experiment at that dealership involved Jim Wangers ,DeLorian, Ace Wilson, Bill Colins and Russel Gee etc etc, that car DID not start out as a GTO or a performance car, and it is worth MORE than most of the ensuing GTO's by a distance! According to your measure, it should be worth far less...go figure Hmmm, seems to me the same applies to Royal Bobcat's Yenco's COPO's The first Barracuda race cars with 426 hemi's sold only as race cars, the Dart GTS and on the Chrysler side the Grand Spalding's for Ford it was the initial SHELBY's all ordered as regular v8 mustangs and Modified by Carol Shelby and all serious modifications none of which were initially factory authorized or factory built and everyone worth far more than their “standard tagged” counterparts. Imagine that!
We are both correct and We are both incorrect!
Fair enough?
Have a great day!
First: I never resorted to insults, I view that as the hallmark of a simple mind. ( Silly and Ignorant )
Second: I knew the relative heritage of every classic I have bought or built over the last 25 plus years, which to date numbers 23. none of which ever made me angry, I find only pleasure and pride in my avocation.
Third: It actually sounds like you are proudly defending the ridiculous amount you spent for your numbers matching 68 which today is likely worth far less than when you finished paying for it
Fourth:Obviously not everyone shares your "the way it is" opinion or no one in their right mind would even think of investing 10 cents building up a car that started life as a /6. YET it seems to be the first choice of a far wider audience than the "tag elitists" care to comprehend and it is responsible for generating far more total dollar movement than all the tag cars bolted together ( us news)
Fifth: You have only heard your own voice and message, I have agreed with you countless times that TAG cars cost more. THAT was not my point! nice miss!
Sixth: Please try to recognize that neither of us are considered by anyone as a foremost authority on this subject and therefore our opinions are as our "2Darts" friend states: "My opinions are like my arm pits. I've always got 'em and every once in a while, they'll stink."
summary: My argument was that the sum of the parts is pretty much dead equal the only differentiation was the TAG which offers no additional physical value. I worked for Chrysler in the 70" and 80's and I know what it costs them to build an S car vs a regular 318, the difference is about $35 and the majority of the parts in both cars are identical.
The first recognized "muscle car" was built at a Pontiac dealership in royal oak Michigan, A tempest/LeMans was "pumped up" at Royal Pontiac with parts from other models and later came to be called the GTO. The experiment at that dealership involved Jim Wangers ,DeLorian, Ace Wilson, Bill Colins and Russel Gee etc etc, that car DID not start out as a GTO or a performance car, and it is worth MORE than most of the ensuing GTO's by a distance! According to your measure, it should be worth far less...go figure Hmmm, seems to me the same applies to Royal Bobcat's Yenco's COPO's The first Barracuda race cars with 426 hemi's sold only as race cars, the Dart GTS and on the Chrysler side the Grand Spalding's for Ford it was the initial SHELBY's all ordered as regular v8 mustangs and Modified by Carol Shelby and all serious modifications none of which were initially factory authorized or factory built and everyone worth far more than their “standard tagged” counterparts. Imagine that!
We are both correct and We are both incorrect!
Fair enough?
Have a great day!
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
I can't even find a point in the above post.
Lets look at 3 cars… All 3 cars are restored to exactly the same condition.
Car 1 is a 1969 Barracuda 340, Formula S with matching numbers and documentation.
Car 2 is an exact clone of the above car but on checking the tag and vin it shows that the car started life with a 318
Car 3 is different from the above 2 only in the fact it is badged correctly as a non Formula S car
Of those 3 the Documented 340 car (car 1) will always be worth more, sell for more and be more desirable.
The pedigree of a car……. Even if it is little more than a hand full of badges and a few parts gives the car extra value.
As far as my car goes…. Yes it is a real, matching number, 1968, 340, Formula S with 62,000 original miles.
I paid $12,000 for it in 2005 and have put under $1000 into it, to get it to the condition you see in the pic.
The wire wheel covers were $400, the redline tires were about $600…. Sold the wheels and tires that came on it for $700.
As far as this....
"We are both correct and We are both incorrect!
Fair enough?
Have a great day!"
NO… You are simply wrong and have been wrong.
Lets look at 3 cars… All 3 cars are restored to exactly the same condition.
Car 1 is a 1969 Barracuda 340, Formula S with matching numbers and documentation.
Car 2 is an exact clone of the above car but on checking the tag and vin it shows that the car started life with a 318
Car 3 is different from the above 2 only in the fact it is badged correctly as a non Formula S car
Of those 3 the Documented 340 car (car 1) will always be worth more, sell for more and be more desirable.
The pedigree of a car……. Even if it is little more than a hand full of badges and a few parts gives the car extra value.
As far as my car goes…. Yes it is a real, matching number, 1968, 340, Formula S with 62,000 original miles.
I paid $12,000 for it in 2005 and have put under $1000 into it, to get it to the condition you see in the pic.
The wire wheel covers were $400, the redline tires were about $600…. Sold the wheels and tires that came on it for $700.
As far as this....
"We are both correct and We are both incorrect!
Fair enough?
Have a great day!"
NO… You are simply wrong and have been wrong.
Here's the one I did, just left off all of the S stuff.
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
SWEET AS PIE amigo...SWEET AS PIE!! and a real head turner I am sure....Love the color!! what is that name of that color? Really sets off the white interior nicely....
I see many clones and for that matter # match cars on mecum etc that even not counting the 1000s of hrs of work are selling for what many folks hae in them for parts alone.
I say build what you want, it is hard to do for cash unless you are lucky enough o have a pile of old cars you bought bak i nthe 60s and 70s before they went nuts...
I say build what you want, it is hard to do for cash unless you are lucky enough o have a pile of old cars you bought bak i nthe 60s and 70s before they went nuts...
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine.... neither carries more weight, either can be disputed endlessly....
Next time you attend the woodward cruise look me up...it would be far more fun to engage this debate over a burger & beer watching hundreds of classics roar by ...hopefully my 66 will be done by then and we can park them in "Cuda Row".....If the timing is right I may be able to introduce you to an associate of mine Milt Schornack, he was the head mechanic at Ace Wilsons Royal Pontiac when it all started and was the guy who worked on the first Royal Bobcat GTO. I am pretty sure you would get a charge out of him and his insights.
DID 68 Barracuda's ever come with wires? I thought the S cars only came with those weird hubcaps that the LONG lugs poked thru?
FOR the original person asking the question I am pretty certain there are more responses toward the "do what YOU like" option and you can add mine to that tally. from my perspective this is about what we each enjoy and what makes each of us happy....to that end modify as you see fit and enjoy the ride!
Next time you attend the woodward cruise look me up...it would be far more fun to engage this debate over a burger & beer watching hundreds of classics roar by ...hopefully my 66 will be done by then and we can park them in "Cuda Row".....If the timing is right I may be able to introduce you to an associate of mine Milt Schornack, he was the head mechanic at Ace Wilsons Royal Pontiac when it all started and was the guy who worked on the first Royal Bobcat GTO. I am pretty sure you would get a charge out of him and his insights.
DID 68 Barracuda's ever come with wires? I thought the S cars only came with those weird hubcaps that the LONG lugs poked thru?
FOR the original person asking the question I am pretty certain there are more responses toward the "do what YOU like" option and you can add mine to that tally. from my perspective this is about what we each enjoy and what makes each of us happy....to that end modify as you see fit and enjoy the ride!
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