Is vacuum advance needed with MSD box with a daily driver?

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273

273

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As some of you know I just bought a 68 Valiant with a 360 380hp create engine with a 727 2800 and 2.94 gears.

It's driveable as is but I want something I can drive everyday with no problems.
So far the butchered wiring and vapor lock has given me issues already.

For performance I'm looking to swap 3.55 in asap and in the winter add lower 1st gear, port heads and Rhoads lifters.

But first things first need to get it reliable.
Someone has added orange box and duel field alternator but butchered the wiring harness which I'm about to redo.

1st I like to add is MSD distributor and CDI box. And duel electric fans.

And

2nd Holley sniper efi.

I want to add the Distributor and box first.
Cause holley say best to have a good working ignition to allow holley to set itself up before letting holley take control of the ignition. And needs that distributor and box to run anyways.

But the problem and question is the MSD distributor im looking at has no vacuum advance which is OK once I go with the Holley sniper efi but in the meantime or that I find it works perfectly fine without going efi. Is the lack of vacuum advance a problem with MSD 6al digital box??

MSD 8534 Billet Chrysler Small Block Distributor - MSD Performance Products
 
Rhoads lifters are for pussies. You can advance the cam timing a good bit. What's the LSA? 108? If so, you can go down to about 100 or even 98 ICL and that will bring back a lot of bottom end torque.

Those engines are supposed to sound nasty. Rhoads lifters take the nasty away. Of course if that's what you want.......
 
RustyRatRod said:
Rhoads lifters are for pussies. You can advance the cam timing a good bit. What's the LSA? 108? If so, you can go down to about 100 or even 98 ICL and that will bring back a lot of bottom end torque.



Those engines are supposed to sound nasty. Rhoads lifters take the nasty away. Of course if that's what you want.......
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If I built the engine is wouldn't of picked that big of a cam. I like the sound and don't mind it shakes the car at idle like it wants to throw parts off the car. But I want something I can hop in and say take off the Florida or whatever without too much concern.
And to me Rhoads is a win win still have the top end power and will gain some more low end grunt and hopefully a few mpg.
I don't understand why people don't put them on all cams seems like a win win to me.
Plus my cam is a 288 on 108 I'm sure 10 or so degrees less is still gonna have a nice lope.
 
Advancing the cam has the same result and has no effect on the sound.

The Rhoads lifters do work well.......I have just never been a big fan.

273 said:
If I built the engine is wouldn't of picked that big of a cam. I like the sound and don't mind it shakes the car at idle like it wants to throw parts off the car. But I want something I can hop in and say take off the Florida or whatever without too much concern.
And to me Rhoads is a win win still have the top end power and will gain some more low end grunt and hopefully a few mpg.
I don't understand why people don't put them on all cams seems like a win win to me.
Plus my cam is a 288 on 108 I'm sure 10 or so degrees less is still gonna have a nice lope.
Click to expand...
 
Also how much initial advance you have in the timing?....Makes a world of difference..
 
the 380 hydraulic roller is 230/236 @.050 with a 108LSA
 
70aarcuda said:
Also how much initial advance you have in the timing?....Makes a world of difference..
Click to expand...

I was goin there next, but he wasn't receptive to my first idea, so I decided not to. lol
 
I think I titled the thread wrong, the way it is, is totally driveable but yes I haven't verified the timing yet. Right now it don't run think fuel pump went lol


RRR I value your opinions I know you got a lot more experience than me. If I do the Rhoads thing that will be next winter if at all.

But right now I'm about to rewire.
And about the Holley sniper efi, my mind is about 50% made that I'll get.
So anything I do now has to have that plan in mind.

Right now since I'm about to rewire the car I've decided to upgrade the ignition to an MSD digital 6al and Distributor and my main question is the lack of vacuum advance on this distributor have any ill effect on the engine performance and mileage if I don't go with efi later ??


The main reason to add MSD and maybe efi is start ability under any circumstances and add some mpg's and I figure Rhoads will help also with that.
 
FredS said:
no,a non vacuum dizzy and MSD 6 box will work ok.
Click to expand...

Is that from a performance stand point and or mileage and driveablity??

It seems all there distributors that are designed to run with an MSD box only have no vacuum advance.
 
On your drive to Florida with 3.55 gears and no OD, looks like you will be in the slow lane the whole trip.
 
lemondana said:
On your drive to Florida with 3.55 gears and no OD, looks like you will be in the slow lane the whole trip.
Click to expand...

Really if I did a trip that last more than a couple of hours I'd swap out the 3.55 for 2.94 1st.
 
Yeah it'll work fine. Set initial timing at idle to ~around~ 18°, with full advance of ~around~ 35° all in by 2600-2800 RPM. Been driving my 340 with MSD mechanical distributor and 6AL box for a couple years now set up that way.
 
I guess I'll stick with the stock distributor for now and just add the MSD box for now. And upgrade the Distributor when and if I go fuel injection. I'm gonna go MSD 6al-2 I plan on going to the track and few times this year and if that becomes more of a regular thing the extra options might come in handy.
 
Vacuum advance on the freeway will typically get you more mileage, and better smoothness on moderate speed cruising.
 
The MSD box is not a requirement of the holley sniper... You'd have a double redundant ignition system with no real benefit, and would have paid $250 for something you don't need.

If its running now, you'd be better off to leave it as is, and then purchase the correct and non redundant distributor to go with the sniper.

If you want to dump the mopar ignition (good call) and also have a distributor you can use with the sniper going forward...you should just get one of these.
ready to run, no box required, sniper compatible, mopar ballast and ecm are not used.

TSP-JM7713R Mopar SB Pro Series Ready to Run Electronic Distributor. Red Cap

upload_2017-5-2_8-20-50.png


you can adjust the vac advance as desired on this one, or remove it entirely.
 
You sir have a good solid plan and no, the lack of vac advance won't hurt a thing.

I agree to not get the Rhoades lifters though
 
I have no personal experience with Rhoads lifters, but a Mopar buddy of mine tried them, years ago, and he didn't like them. He ended up swapping them out after a year or so.
 
Johnny Pace said:
The MSD box is not a requirement of the holley sniper... You'd have a double redundant ignition system with no real benefit, and would have paid $250 for something you don't need.

If its running now, you'd be better off to leave it as is, and then purchase the correct and non redundant distributor to go with the sniper.

If you want to dump the mopar ignition (good call) and also have a distributor you can use with the sniper going forward...you should just get one of these.
ready to run, no box required, sniper compatible, mopar ballast and ecm are not used.

TSP-JM7713R Mopar SB Pro Series Ready to Run Electronic Distributor. Red Cap

View attachment 1715043517

you can adjust the vac advance as desired on this one, or remove it entirely.
Click to expand...

I know you don't necessarily need the CDI box with the Holley, but from what I understand you have to buy there box for the coil control which cheaper but don't get the benefit of multi spark at cruise rpm.
 
273 said:
I know you don't necessarily need the CDI box with the Holley, but from what I understand you have to buy there box for the coil control which cheaper but don't get the benefit of multi spark at cruise rpm.
Click to expand...

If multi-spark is a requirement of yours, then yes buy the box. but you do NOT need their box for the timing control feature, or to operate with a sniper.

i'm pulling you off track however. I just didn't want to see you spend money on a box (which isn't needed for a sniper) just to keep the OE distributor (which will NOT work with the sniper)
 
Rusty only says this cause he's done the cam advance! I think he did it with the 509 purple grind. Dies top end suffer any?:rolleyes:
 
Johnny Pace said:
If multi-spark is a requirement of yours, then yes buy the box. but you do NOT need their box for the timing control feature, or to operate with a sniper.

i'm pulling you off track however. I just didn't want to see you spend money on a box (which isn't needed for a sniper) just to keep the OE distributor (which will NOT work with the sniper)
Click to expand...

I see what you mean I thought the coil driver was an addon that you had to buy didn't realize it came with the kit. That changes everything lol
 
273 said:
I see what you mean I thought the coil driver was an addon that you had to buy didn't realize it came with the kit. That changes everything lol
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Nope, part of the kit :)

i believe we're the only company with the snipers in stock at the moment.
Performance/Engine/Drivetrain - Air/Fuel Delivery - Fuel Injection Kits, Components, and Accessories - Fuel Injection Systems - Fuel Injection Retrofit Kit

you can run the simple 2 wire with the sniper (but you need a box w/o it)
TSP-JM7613BK Mopar SB Pro Series Pro-Billet Electronic Distributor. Black Cap
and phasable rotor
Adjustable Race Rotor MSD Ignition 84211 - Pace Performance Parts

or if you want to dump the mopar ignition, and get the sniper later...you get the ready to run i posted above, then we just swap out the module down the road to a 2-wire when its sniper time.
TSP-JM6919 Ignition Distributor Magnetic Pickup for 6600 & 7600 series Distributors
 
QuickDart360 said:
Rusty only says this cause he's done the cam advance! I think he did it with the 509 purple grind. Dies top end suffer any?:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

The heads are the choke point before you get to where the cam will die off. How many stock headed cars can turn 6K and still make good power, pretty much none. I'd advance the cam to 102ish and let it eat. Do a hot compression test before hand to see where you are sitting and still stay safe for pump gas.

Is Vacuum Advance needed, no. Will it provide some benefit from an economy perspective, possibly. Can it cause issues in other areas of a tune up, yes.
 
Johnny Pace said:
Nope, part of the kit :)

i believe we're the only company with the snipers in stock at the moment.
Performance/Engine/Drivetrain - Air/Fuel Delivery - Fuel Injection Kits, Components, and Accessories - Fuel Injection Systems - Fuel Injection Retrofit Kit

you can run the simple 2 wire with the sniper (but you need a box w/o it)
TSP-JM7613BK Mopar SB Pro Series Pro-Billet Electronic Distributor. Black Cap
and phasable rotor
Adjustable Race Rotor MSD Ignition 84211 - Pace Performance Parts

or if you want to dump the mopar ignition, and get the sniper later...you get the ready to run i posted above, then we just swap out the module down the road to a 2-wire when its sniper time.
TSP-JM6919 Ignition Distributor Magnetic Pickup for 6600 & 7600 series Distributors
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea how much in canadian dollars it would be to my door just outside of Toronto with shipping and handling and duty and any brokerage fees ?

The master kit with distributor and rotor ?
 
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