isnt he a member here?

[DionR]

Eh. I'd like to be excited by the prospect of seeing the Green Brick revamped again, but if Ehrenberg is still involved I doubt it will be half as interesting as some of the builds here on FABO.

No argument on the level of builds on here. And I agree that Ehrenberg probably won't take it much further than swapping the 6.4 in. Be fun to see him tweak the suspension and campaign it some, but not holding my breath.

I'm excited to see the car back in print and getting worked on. There is a mystique to the car for me due to the One Lap events and how it kind of carried the Mopar banner. Not the only one, but maybe the best covered one. Add that I am gathering parts to do a 5.7/T56 swap to my car makes it even more interesting to see. I am hopeful that there will be a couple of tricks he shows that help me with my swap, but time will tell.

I dug out the '93 and '94 issues of One Lap coverage and it was fun to read them again. The '94 event was interesting in that even though Mark's Camaro dumped weight and added HP, according to the MA article, the Valiant was still giving them a run for their money. Going into the last event, the Valiant was 7th overall until a spin cost them a bunch of points and dropped them to 10th overall. The Camaro finished 6th overall, only one position above where the Valiant went into the last event. The Valiant outhandled the Camaro on short courses and the Camaro out ran them on long courses which made it a close contest, not the crushing defeat the Hot Rod article says it was.

 

[DionR]

Sure seems like you could buy a complete upgrade kit for a stock front end from one place if someone wanted to "one stop shop". Depending on what parts they wanted. Seems like PST, or Firm Feel would be a good place to start.

Add that if your front end is worn out, buy a poly rebuilt kit and maybe upgrade the TB's and shocks at the same time. Then later add a swaybar when funds are there. After that, maybe some tubular UCA. All in steps that keep the flow of funds low and keep the project moving forward and drivable. And each time the parts could all come in one box.

The alternative is coughing up $5K+ for a front end kit all at once. Oh wait, that's without brakes, so $6K+ if you want it to still roll instead of sit on jack stands. For some that is just the price you pay, but it doesn't sit well for me. Even more so when I still don't see any kind of real performance difference for something like twice the money and a significant hit to the wallet all at once.

Not to say that large purchases aren't necessary at times. I bought a T56 Magnum kit recently and had to do just that. First time I have ever spent so much money on a car outside of buying the car itself. But I don't see myself piecemealing a T56 together so it made sense if I was going to ever have a 6 speed. Just don't see the same logic applying to a coil over kit.

That said, not knocking anyone who does go the direction of a coil over kit. More power to anyone that wants to do it. And I've seen Blu say the exact same thing. I think the issue is only when someone says "coil over are the best" which is different than "I want to use coil overs".

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

For torsion bar suspensions we are one of the only one stop shops for steering, suspension and brakes. Many forget the little guys that have supported this page forever. Everyone should be glad there are options. It proves the hobby is healthy. It comes down to education which is the most difficult thing to convey through a keyboard...

 

[DionR]

For torsion bar suspensions we are one of the only one stop shops for steering, suspension and brakes. Many forget the little guys that have supported this page forever. Everyone should be glad there are options. It proves the hobby is healthy. It comes down to education which is the most difficult thing to convey through a keyboard...

You are right, I didn't mean to leave you out of the list. Wasn't looking to make a suggestion as to where someone should buy so it was kind of off the cuff and I should have thought about it more.

You have been a great supporter and a wealth of knowledge. Probably the best customer support I have experienced. And you have parts no one else is offering. Definitely should have been at the top of my list of suppliers.

 

[72bluNblu]

oh brother...lol. it always cracks me up how triggered you get when this subject comes up and the lengthy hate spewed posts against the systems you post.. i think everyone gets it. you hate those systems. ok.. but many like them. i guess thats something you'll need to accept one day.

yes many people would like to one stop shop instead of having to go different places. i don't see an issue with that. nothing that you posted about what is posted on the RMS site is a lie. call it whatever you want but it isn't a lie. like i said if you are so curious about plots or numbers then ask bill one day.. maybe he will show you. maybe not, i don't know. what i do know is crying about it on a web site won't get you the answer...

i don't care how new a steering box system is, i don't care how prefect the box is adjusted. no way will it feel like a rack. just too many moving parts. me, i prefer the feel of a rack. its what i like.. i'm not telling you that you have to like it. there is a different feel. that just can't be argued. for me i don't care about lap times. its about how it feels on the street driving how i want to drive.

and yet again if anyone thinks you can just bolt anything in and it be perfect for their intended use right out of the box without some tweaking to make it work for them then they are just an idiot.

Hate? I don't hate coil over suspensions. It's just suspension. It has its advantages AND its disadvantages compared to torsion bar suspension.

And I'm not triggered. I just posted facts. You haven't posted one thing about coil over suspensions that you've supported with data or even a basic analysis. Not even the subjective article you've posted is accurate, wracks71's Duster has been obliterated by torsion bar/leaf spring cars. I posted some basic facts, and you're the one still arguing that coil overs are better.

No one that makes a coil over suspension has ever posted the geometry plots, compared their bump steer curves, shown their roll center improvement or camber gain. I've never seen it posted by a member either. I have seen those things posted for torsion bar suspensions, and yet no one has done the objective work to compare their coil over system to an upgraded torsion bar system.

Basically that means that everyone with a coil over suspension conversion on a Mopar is just a fanboy. They have no evidence, no facts, but they will say things about how "superior" their suspension is. Well, without the plots and calculations, that's just nonsense. All of the things that would make a suspension "superior" can be objectively determined. If you're making that claim without posting the actual evidence, well, that's just marketing BS.

And to me, that's the most annoying part. Coil overs are just suspension, just springs and shocks, nothing to get angry about. But people get convinced they "NEED" coil over suspension to handle well, and there's nothing true about that, you can handle REALLY well with torsion bars and leaf springs, that has been proven again and again. And then they'll spend $5k+ to convert their car without having any objective facts that support that opinion. Why? Because the coil over conversions are shiny and new, and doing the math to actually understand what you're doing in setting up your suspension is hard.

Sure seems like you could buy a complete upgrade kit for a stock front end from one place if someone wanted to "one stop shop". Depending on what parts they wanted. Seems like PST, or Firm Feel would be a good place to start.

Add that if your front end is worn out, buy a poly rebuilt kit and maybe upgrade the TB's and shocks at the same time. Then later add a swaybar when funds are there. After that, maybe some tubular UCA. All in steps that keep the flow of funds low and keep the project moving forward and drivable. And each time the parts could all come in one box.

The alternative is coughing up $5K+ for a front end kit all at once. Oh wait, that's without brakes, so $6K+ if you want it to still roll instead of sit on jack stands. For some that is just the price you pay, but it doesn't sit well for me. Even more so when I still don't see any kind of real performance difference for something like twice the money and a significant hit to the wallet all at once.

Not to say that large purchases aren't necessary at times. I bought a T56 Magnum kit recently and had to do just that. First time I have ever spent so much money on a car outside of buying the car itself. But I don't see myself piecemealing a T56 together so it made sense if I was going to ever have a 6 speed. Just don't see the same logic applying to a coil over kit.

That said, not knocking anyone who does go the direction of a coil over kit. More power to anyone that wants to do it. And I've seen Blu say the exact same thing. I think the issue is only when someone says "coil over are the best" which is different than "I want to use coil overs".

Exactly. You want to run coil overs, fine by me. You go on the internet and start saying "my coil over car is the best" without posting any objective data or geometry, well, you'd better be faster. And so far, none of them have actually been faster. The problem I have with the coil over conversions isn't the suspensions, it's all the fanboys that literally don't know anything about the actual suspension geometry or chassis loading saying they've got the best **** because they spent the most money. Has yet to be proven.

@BergmanAutoCraft is really the only one stop shop if you wanted to fully upgrade a torsion bar suspension car from one source. I think FirmFeel and Summit Racing would be the next closest, with Summit of course you'd get no help with your selection you'd have to figure out what you needed on your own. BAC and FirmFeel can both help walk you through what you need for your application. Although personally I don't understand the need to get everything from the same place. There are pros and cons to all of the upgrade parts out there, and if you can look at what those are and understand how they work within the suspension system you can build a set up that works best for your by going to a few different places.

The "one stop shop" thing that is touted by the coil over swappers is just laziness IMHO. Do you want the best system? Or do you want to click a button and put some shiny toys on your car?

 

[abodyjoe]

and he is off again...

 

[jos51700]

I smelled a slap fight around here somewhere. I came in here but didn't see any mention of green bearings so I'm out.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

Hate? I don't hate coil over suspensions. It's just suspension. It has its advantages AND its disadvantages compared to torsion bar suspension.

And I'm not triggered. I just posted facts. You haven't posted one thing about coil over suspensions that you've supported with data or even a basic analysis. Not even the subjective article you've posted is accurate, wracks71's Duster has been obliterated by torsion bar/leaf spring cars. I posted some basic facts, and you're the one still arguing that coil overs are better.

No one that makes a coil over suspension has ever posted the geometry plots, compared their bump steer curves, shown their roll center improvement or camber gain. I've never seen it posted by a member either. I have seen those things posted for torsion bar suspensions, and yet no one has done the objective work to compare their coil over system to an upgraded torsion bar system.

Basically that means that everyone with a coil over suspension conversion on a Mopar is just a fanboy. They have no evidence, no facts, but they will say things about how "superior" their suspension is. Well, without the plots and calculations, that's just nonsense. All of the things that would make a suspension "superior" can be objectively determined. If you're making that claim without posting the actual evidence, well, that's just marketing BS.

And to me, that's the most annoying part. Coil overs are just suspension, just springs and shocks, nothing to get angry about. But people get convinced they "NEED" coil over suspension to handle well, and there's nothing true about that, you can handle REALLY well with torsion bars and leaf springs, that has been proven again and again. And then they'll spend $5k+ to convert their car without having any objective facts that support that opinion. Why? Because the coil over conversions are shiny and new, and doing the math to actually understand what you're doing in setting up your suspension is hard.



Exactly. You want to run coil overs, fine by me. You go on the internet and start saying "my coil over car is the best" without posting any objective data or geometry, well, you'd better be faster. And so far, none of them have actually been faster. The problem I have with the coil over conversions isn't the suspensions, it's all the fanboys that literally don't know anything about the actual suspension geometry or chassis loading saying they've got the best **** because they spent the most money. Has yet to be proven.

@BergmanAutoCraft is really the only one stop shop if you wanted to fully upgrade a torsion bar suspension car from one source. I think FirmFeel and Summit Racing would be the next closest, with Summit of course you'd get no help with your selection you'd have to figure out what you needed on your own. BAC and FirmFeel can both help walk you through what you need for your application. Although personally I don't understand the need to get everything from the same place. There are pros and cons to all of the upgrade parts out there, and if you can look at what those are and understand how they work within the suspension system you can build a set up that works best for your by going to a few different places.

The "one stop shop" thing that is touted by the coil over swappers is just laziness IMHO. Do you want the best system? Or do you want to click a button and put some shiny toys on your car?

Extremely well said....I couldn't agree more, and being that I have raced mopar torsion bar cars in ACTUAL competition, I know your spot on!

 

[wracks71]

But people DO think that, I've had discussions with more than a few people on this board and most of them just regurgitate the marketing claims. Coil overs are the best!!!

And what does the advertising say? Straight from RMS-

"Our complete suspension systems do more than save weight and add clearance. They're
designed with precise geometry for optimum control, whether you're on the road course,
cruising along winding country roads, or driving along pothole-covered city streets."

and

" Full Features -

• - Superior geometry throughout the travel range.
• - 5.5" total travel.
• - Rigid parts for excellent control and feel.
• - RideTech monotube Single Adjustable Coil-Overs offer superior ride quality and handling along with the RideTech Exclusive Million-Mile Warranty."

RMS has it plastered all over their website, "superior geometry", "optimum control" in all situations. Except, have you actually ever seen the suspension geometry plots for a coil over conversion, RMS or otherwise? I haven't, not for any of the coil over conversions available. Not one.

And for RMS especially that's kinda interesting. Reason being is that Bill Reilly wrote the article about how the FMJ spindles aren't a problem like Ehrenburg said earlier in his disk o tech article. And in Bill's article he includes the suspension geometry plots for both factory disk spindles and FMJ spindles on an A-body. Which means he knows exactly how to do it and what the factory, and modified factory geometry can show for at least a couple of set ups.

Swapping Disc-Brake Spindles - Mopar Muscle Magazine

And then he doesn't publish the exact same info for his own suspension? Despite claiming it's "superior" in every way and throughout the range of travel? If it's true, why not publish that information and PROVE it?

Well, I'll go out on a limb and say why. Because it's not all that dramatically different from what you can achieve with the torsion bar suspension. None of the suspension mounting points are moved. The UCA's are basically the same as any of the tubular Mopar UCA's. The UCA's and LCA's remain basically parallel to each other, which means the spindle height isn't that different either (and that can be adjusted anyway). The suspension travel is roughly the same as factory (~5.5"). The stuff that's mostly the same is what controls the roll center, so that won't be all that different. And forget the motion ratio, the torsion bar system is 1:1 and that's as good as it gets, no coil over conversion system can touch it (it's one of the torsion bar systems main advantages, its VERY efficient).

So yeah, I'd be willing to bet those suspension geometry plots aren't all that different from a torsion bar system on a car that uses tubular UCA's and has been lowered a bit. Certainly there's no slam dunk there for sure, because if there was I can guarantee someone would have published the suspension plots by now as part of their advertising for their coil over conversion. You know that RMS did the analysis and the plots for sure, Bill's a smart guy and I know he put real work into designing that suspension so it would work. It wouldn't be hard to slap that stuff together and make the geometry WORSE, and he knows that.

There's no doubt some advantages, and no doubt some disadvantages too. It's how all suspension works. If you just need to have a rack and pinion, knock yourself out. But a rack and pinion and header clearance doesn't mean "superior" handling.

Hey Joe! I've been around. Gotta love the comments...Kevin beat me with alot better tire,dialed in car,and he is a hell of a driver....just the facts.

 

[DionR]

Hey Joe! I've been around. Gotta love the comments...Kevin beat me with alot better tire,dialed in car,and he is a hell of a driver....just the facts.

You are still around. Glad to see you post.

Still have your car?

 

[wracks71]

You are still around. Glad to see you post.

Still have your car?

Yes. In storage. Divorced in last July, lost my shop over the crazy *****...I hadn't raced it much in about 3 yrs,**** got too expensive and can't keep up with the guys with unlimited budgets..

 

[RogerRamRod]

Divorce can mess things up for sure. Glad to see another make it through, even with the scrapes & bruises.
Even if you can't get out and compete, you can start enjoying your car, thats a plus. I can't even imagine what its like to try and remain competitive, just trying to get done what I want to be a decent road car is costing me more than I ever thought. The pisser is the price is skyrocketing, yet the quality of EVERYTHING is in question, you can't rely on a name or price to be anything near what it once was.
Rant over, Welcome back, get that thing fired up and bring us along.

PS, What is the "off the shelf" air cleaner assembly mentioned in that article?

 

[DionR]

Yes. In storage. Divorced in last July, lost my shop over the crazy *****...I hadn't raced it much in about 3 yrs,**** got too expensive and can't keep up with the guys with unlimited budgets..

Sucks to hear that. Hope you can get it out and enjoy it for what it is at some point.