Jehovah's Witnesses

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318willrun said:
Bighammer..... I've given you many scriptures. You've not addressed a single one. Explain them....
So, start with post 111, then 112, then 113.
like this: Who created?? I say God. Do you agree or disagree? (Genesis 1:1)
Does the Bible contradict? John 1:10 says "he was in the world, the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (they crucified him). This scripture says Jesus made the world. Either the Bible contradicts, or they are the same and one. I'm not going to retype it all. when your done explaining all the scriptures in the posts I've mentioned, I have many more.
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10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.

Gen1:26
26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image,according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
Colossians 1:16
16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
Hebrews 1:2
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,and through whom he made the systems of things.
 
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bighammer said:
26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image,according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. Agreed! I don't see where you get two from this??
Colossians 1:16
16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. YES! You Got It! JESUS.
Hebrews 1:2
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,and through whom he made the systems of things. Yes! I don't get your confusion???
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answers in black again.... and I see you went back and edited after I respond. And your edit is quotes from your JW. I responded to that below. KJV is what we agreed, correct?
 
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Bighammer, who forgive sin??
Isaiah 43:25 states God (Jehovah) does this, correct??? Yet Jesus said more than once "thy sins be forgiven thee"..... The Pharisee's claimed only God could forgive sins, and guess what?? they were correct! :) Jesus didn't say otherwise either, neither did he say there are more than one persons forgiving sins... LOL! In fact, he made it a point in Luke 5:24 that the "son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins"...... And he could, because he was God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16)..
 
bighammer said:
10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.
.
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KJV please... you'll have to do a lot of pamphlet teachings and deviate from the word of God to explain many scriptures that I have.
KJV - John 1:10 "he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not".... this quote word for word
If you leave the Bible (KJV), I'm done. I cannot explain your pamphlets, neither will I try. I don't have time for a man-made religion.....
 
Bighammer...... who sends the Holy Spirit???
John 14:16 says "the Father" does this, correct? yep, the Father sends the Comforter.
But wait.......
John 16:7 quotes Jesus speaking of the Comforter "if I depart, I will send him unto you"
Now, which one sends the Comforter? God or Jesus? I guess according to you, the son is trying to be God, therefore undermining his Father, making Jesus to be the Absolom-to-David type of son. Or, the bible contradicts itself...... or...... Jesus is God manifested in the flesh! :D

(P.S. - I've got much explaining for you to do...... I'm just gett'n going :) )
 
John 14:28King James Version (KJV)
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


John 17:3 KJV

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Matthew 16:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


6 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? < Here Jesus identified himself as the son of God


These are just a few verses I found in the KJV (took me all of 10 min) which do not support the idea of God and Jesus being one and the same. Sorry
 
bighammer said:
John 14:28King James Version (KJV)
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


John 17:3 KJV

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Matthew 16:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


6 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? < Here Jesus identified himself as the son of God


These are just a few verses I found in the KJV (took me all of 10 min) which do not support the idea of God and Jesus being one and the same. Sorry
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Bighammer.... I've explained it over and over again. I'm not denying a Son. The FLESH was the Son. The Spirit inside the Flesh was the Father. I'm saying the Son and Father are inseparable...... You keep acting like I'm denying a "son" existed... LOL. Do you even read what I write??? I doubt it.
 
318willrun said:
Bighammer...... who sends the Holy Spirit???
John 14:16 says "the Father" does this, correct? yep, the Father sends the Comforter.
But wait.......
John 16:7 quotes Jesus speaking of the Comforter "if I depart, I will send him unto you"
Now, which one sends the Comforter? God or Jesus? I guess according to you, the son is trying to be God, therefore undermining his Father, making Jesus to be the Absolom-to-David type of son. Or, the bible contradicts itself...... or...... Jesus is God manifested in the flesh! :D

(P.S. - I've got much explaining for you to do...... I'm just gett'n going :) )
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Of course, the Bible most certainly does NOT contradict itself. However... take a look at these verses that explain what Jesus was actually saying:

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever,
John 14:26
26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
John 15:26
26 When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me;
Acts 2:32, 33
32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
 
bighammer said:
Of course, the Bible most certainly does NOT contradict itself. However... take a look at these verses that explain what Jesus was actually saying:

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever,
WRONG! KJV Please... LOL.... not helper, COMFORTER... which is the holy spirit
John 14:26
26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
WRONG! KJV Please....LOL.. Not helper, COMFORTER.... which IS the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..... again, making them inseparable.
John 15:26
26 When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me;
WRONG! KJV Please... LOL... not helper, COMFORTER... and again, this scripture makes them inseparable....
Acts 2:32, 33
32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. Yes, the Spirit (the Father) resurrected the Body (Jesus). Remember, God can't die, so the son died (the flesh he robed himself in). This is why Thomas doubted the resurrection of Jesus, and then when he saw Jesus, Thomas cried "Oh my Lord and My God" .
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you left out john 16:7 ....!!!!!!!! No explanation??? Do you realize, every verse you quoted speaks, and proves God and Jesus are not two separate individuals??? LOL So virtually, the only way to get the Comforter, is through Jesus, as your scriptures explain. And the scripture you left out in my post, John 16:7, which explains it is Jesus that will send the Comforter. Then who needs God? LOL... again, my response is in bold black
P.S. - your explanation of post 153??
 
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..... Yes, bighammer.... you say Jesus and God are separate? then I ask you......... Who needs God (your Jehovah)????
  • If the Comforter (holy spirit) is sent by Jesus, and through Jesus's name..... (John 16:7/John 14:26)
  • and if our Savior is Jesus..... (I John 4:14)
  • and if it's Jesus that forgives Sin..... (Luke 5:24)
  • and if healing is in the name of Jesus.... (all over the new testament)
  • and we are baptized in the name of Jesus (early church; Acts 2:38)
  • and if Jesus is the way.... (John 14:6)
  • and if Jesus is the truth.... (John 14:6)
  • and if Jesus is the life.... (John 14:6)
  • and if Jesus is the door to the sheepfold (John 10:7,9)
  • and if Jesus is the only way to the Father.. (John 14:6)
  • and if Jesus is the resurrection... (John 11:25)
  • and if Devils are subject to Jesus ... (Luke 8, just one example)
  • and ALL power in heaven and earth belong to Jesus... (Matthew 28:18)
  • and if Jesus is the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16)
  • and if Jesus holds the keys to death and hell.... (Rev. 1:18)
  • and if it's Jesus that will Judge us..... (II Corinthians 5:10)
THEN WHO on this earth NEEDS YOUR JEHOVAH? (God)
 
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318WR it's going to be IMPOSSIBLE to get bighammer to get it while using a corrupted version of the Scriptures. He quotes the JW bible, and then cherry picks the KJV verses he THINKS back up his thinking.

This is why "modern" bibles are so bad. Again, in the JW bible (I've seen it both ways and an NIV I have is also this way) if you look up John 8:1-11 it's either NOT THERE, or there is a margin reference that says the "older MSS" do not have these verses in them. Actually, it starts before that. Sometimes they take out entire verses, other times they put a margin note in and bash the MSS.

Do we really think God would have used essentially the same Scriptures for 1900 years and then correct the issue? Every bible student before about 1920 had a corrupted bible? That means that Huss, Jerome, Luther, Melancthon et. al., the men who were the founding of the Reformation, based their knowledge on corrupt Scriptures.

Wescott and Hort were Freemasons, adored Charles Darwin and at the very least short robed Jesuits. The company they kept, the societies they belong to and what they did makes them wholly unfit to translate anything.
 
YellowRose, in person JW's last about 2 minutes at my door when we go over scriptures. I ask them questions and use their own answers to contradict their own beliefs, and they walk away. I cannot do that here as we type back and forth.
And yes, bighammer said he could prove "Jehovah" was Gods name using any Bible, and if we preferred KJV, then so be it. And yes, I seen he has left the KJV for the JW. I noticed all of this.
 
318willrun said:
you left out john 16:7 ....!!!!!!!! No explanation??? Do you realize, every verse you quoted speaks, and proves God and Jesus are not two separate individuals??? LOL So virtually, the only way to get the Comforter, is through Jesus, as your scriptures explain. And the scripture you left out in my post, John 16:7, which explains it is Jesus that will send the Comforter. Then who needs God? LOL... again, my response is in bold black
P.S. - your explanation of post 153??
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@318willrun What I provided was the surrounding verses from the same book (John) which makes it clear what Jesus is referring to. I sorta thought that no explanation was necessary! Here is the verse that you're referring to, John 16:7 KJV
John 16:7King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Now, if you examine the entire book of John, you will see that Jesus was referring to the Holy Spirit. See here:
John 14:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

^ Jesus made no indication that he would become the comforter. He was speaking about Gods Holy Spirit, the most powerful force in the universe. Read on..

Here again, just a few verses later, Jesus expounded on his earlier statement about who he "comforter" is:
John 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

^ Once again, Jesus explained who he was referring to. Yes, it was Gods Holy Spirit, or as the KJV puts it, the Holy Gost. But there's more...

John 15:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

^ Again, Jesus makes no claim to being the Comforter himself. The last verse I quoted earlier, Acts 2:32,33 shows that Jesus received Gods Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost):
Acts 2:32King James Version (KJV)
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


How anyone could deduce that God and Jesus are one and the same from these scriptures above, or from ANY Bible verse is beyond me. And these are the verses that you've chosen to prove that they are the same person?? Sorry, I think I've shown the facts pretty well, from your own translation! (KJV) that there is no mistaking, they are two separate individuals.

God sent His son...

Jesus prayed to his father...

Jesus said that " the Father is greater than I...

Jesus was the first of all Gods creation...

Jesus chose to do the will of his Father, not his own...

There are many, many, many more verses that solidify the fact that their identities are separate from each other.

Yes, the Bible is full of passages that clearly refute the theory that they are the same person. Their identities are well documented throughout the Bible. There is no mystery as to their identities. The only mystery I find here is how anyone could 'read into' the scriptures that Jesus and God are the same person!
 
bighammer said:
@318willrun What I provided was the surrounding verses from the same book (John) which makes it clear what Jesus is referring to. I sorta thought that no explanation was necessary! Here is the verse that you're referring to, John 16:7 KJV
John 16:7King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Now, if you examine the entire book of John, you will see that Jesus was referring to the Holy Spirit. See here:
John 14:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

^ Jesus made no indication that he would become the comforter. He was speaking about Gods Holy Spirit, the most powerful force in the universe. Read on..

Here again, just a few verses later, Jesus expounded on his earlier statement about who he "comforter" is:
John 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

^ Once again, Jesus explained who he was referring to. Yes, it was Gods Holy Spirit, or as the KJV puts it, the Holy Gost. But there's more...

John 15:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

^ Again, Jesus makes no claim to being the Comforter himself. The last verse I quoted earlier, Acts 2:32,33 shows that Jesus received Gods Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost):
Acts 2:32King James Version (KJV)
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


How anyone could deduce that God and Jesus are one and the same from these scriptures above, or from ANY Bible verse is beyond me. And these are the verses that you've chosen to prove that they are the same person?? Sorry, I think I've shown the facts pretty well, from your own translation! (KJV) that there is no mistaking, they are two separate individuals.

God sent His son...

Jesus prayed to his father...

Jesus said that " the Father is greater than I...

Jesus was the first of all Gods creation...

Jesus chose to do the will of his Father, not his own...

There are many, many, many more verses that solidify the fact that their identities are separate from each other.

Yes, the Bible is full of passages that clearly refute the theory that they are the same person. Their identities are well documented throughout the Bible. There is no mystery as to their identities. The only mystery I find here is how anyone could 'read into' the scriptures that Jesus and God are the same person!
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All of this, and what name is the ONLY name that the comforter comes???? What name??? Come on and say it.... not Jehovah, but JESUS! Correct???
 
bighammer said:
And note, I only used the Bible of your choice (KJV) to prove the point!
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And post 160.... why do I need Jehovah?? remind me again, because I listed everything comes through Jesus. And I have much more too :)
  • I say when I get Jesus, I got Jehovah of old :thumbsup:
 
bighammer..... what does Jehovah say about those heathens (in the old testament) that sacrificed their children? Was it a good thing or bad thing? I don't want 5 paragraphs, just answer if it was GOOD or BAD? thanks
 
I get the real issue bighammer has.

He is fretting over the trinity and how you make it work.

You can't make the trinity work because it PAGAN, apwas used thought time as a pagan tool whether father, mother, child or father, son and Holy Spirit.

The short of it is the KJV does NOT prove a trinity. It disproves a trinity.

In our discussion, trinity is defined as three, co-equal, co-eternal beings in the Godhead. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have three anything in the Godhead if you can do simple math. Let's all count together.

God the Father is a Spirit.
Jesus Christ WAS a Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit.

At the incarnation Christ gave up His ability to be in all places at once (Omnipresence) and now what happens to HIS Spirit, because the Spirt is Devine and you can't kill Divinity?

Now, you have 4 beings in the so called Trinity. It never works out. Sadly, like Protestants the world over, have given was to pagan/Catholic doctrines since before the close of the Reformation. Most Protestants were anti-Trinitarian. But, just like the dog returning to his own vomit, the Reformation churches sold out their birthright for a mess of pottage. By the 1950's most churches had sold out on Christmas, Easter, the Trinity and a host of other pagan doctrines co-opted by church leaders. Literally, the blind leading the blind.

So how do we square 1 John 5:7 with an anti-trinitarian dogma? It's easy if we know the God of the OT is the SAME God in the NT. Christ said it with his own words in Luke 24:25-27. Then John 1:1 makes sense in the KJV and makes all other rendering senseless. So how does it fit?

God the Father is a Spirit.
Christ is a spirit BEFORE the incarnation.
Christ was given a body (see Hebrews 10:5-10 and and compare Psalm 40:6) at His incarnation yet His Spirit was still there.

That's how you get three in the Godhead but it can't be a trinity, because Christ didn't have a body until 3 B.C.
Some put a body on Christ for eternity but that doesn't add up. It kills the incarnation and how did God become flesh if he already had flesh?
The Bible is entirely logical and sequential. It has to make sense and it has to fit or it isn't correct. When you read Genesis, you find it was Christ who formed Adam, who created Eve from Adam. It was Christ who was in the burning bush, who was the pillar of fire and cloud. And I could give more examples.

If you don't know the Christ of the OT you will never know the Christ of the NT.

BTW, it was Christ represented by the ram in the story of Abraham and Issac. And it was Christ who stopped the hand of Abraham. I could go on but it becomes redundant. I hear many people who claim the God of the OT was nasty, mean, vindictive and the God of the NT is loving, caring and forgiving. The OT covers a history of about 4000 years and the NT covers just barely 100 years. The God of the OT is the same God as the God of the NT. It was and is Christ.
 
318willrun said:
bighammer..... what does Jehovah say about those heathens (in the old testament) that sacrificed their children? Was it a good thing or bad thing? I don't want 5 paragraphs, just answer if it was GOOD or BAD? thanks
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Moloch. Bad. Very bad.

Look at the nations that practiced that and other pagan things like it, even the Jews. The Aztecs are a classic example of a people who practiced that abomination (and others) and they were pretty much wiped out of existence.

Same with the mixed multitude who came out of Egypt. Not a SINGLE one made it to the promised land (Moses got to see it, but since he smote the rock twice...coincidentally that ROCK, which gave living water to the people...represented CHRIST...see how it fits??? he didn't get to go into the promised land) made it. They dropped in the wilderness. I can cite many examples of people who were at a minimum severely punished for gross transgressions like making their children pass through the fire.
 
yellow rose said:
Moloch. Bad. Very bad.

Look at the nations that practiced that and other pagan things like it, even the Jews. The Aztecs are a classic example of a people who practiced that abomination (and others) and they were pretty much wiped out of existence.

Same with the mixed multitude who came out of Egypt. Not a SINGLE one made it to the promised land (Moses got to see it, but since he smote the rock twice...coincidentally that ROCK, which gave living water to the people...represented CHRIST...see how it fits??? he didn't get to go into the promised land) made it. They dropped in the wilderness. I can cite many examples of people who were at a minimum severely punished for gross transgressions like making their children pass through the fire.
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Great answer. Jehovah of old hated pagan worship that sacrificed children. So my question to bighammer is..... Was Jehovah a hypocrite for sacrificing his son????? Would he do to his son what he commanded those not to do????
Absolutely not! He gave himself a ransom for many......... :)
 
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