LA small block,Do you put an oil passage in your head stud?

[Rat Bastid]

Chevy threads are 7/16 how much more can you taper them down. Your not thinking with your dip stick jimmy.

They make studs that go from 7/16 threads to 3/8 shank for chevy stuff for a reason. If ARP wanted to, or if there was a need for it they could make a stud that is 1/2 x 7/16 and you could use that if you thought you needed it. IDK, maybe they do make them. I’ve never asked.

 

[DizzyJr]

If I’m getting what Col Steve is saying, and he can correct me if I’m wrong...all he is doing is moving the feed to the rockers from the feed up from the mains by blocking the hole with the cam bearing and picking the oil up from the lifter gallery.

There is nothing wrong with that, except you are oiling rockers with the oil going to the mains before it gets there. As it is OE, the oil going to the rockers has to at least go to the mains and rods on the way up to the rockers. The OE way only pulls oil off the number 2 and 4 mains, where his way is pulling the oil off all the mains.

I have looked at this at length years ago, but not of a concern for rocker oiling. I didn’t do it, because it still takes oil from the mains. That was when I externally oiled the shafts. In the end that was a giant PITA and not worth the hassles.

I have been looking at other ways to not pull oil from either the mains or before the mains. That would mean any oil going to the mains and rods would have to get their first and the only leaks after the mains would be the leaks at the cam bearings.

I’m not sure how I will do it, but at this point I only see 2 ways to do it. One requires a bulkhead fitting and a couple of hoses and the other requires some hoses off the oil pressure feed port.

I have to consider if it’s even worth the effort, but IMO any time you can feed the rockers with oil that didn’t come off those two mains alone that’s a better way to do it. Not for the sake of the rockers but for the sake of the main and rod bearings.

The OEM way pulls oil off the number 2-4 cam bearing to send oil to the rockershafts. So when not using the 2-4 cam bearing to oil the rockershafts you get constant oil flow, not pulsating. Which also means you have more oil at number 2-4 cam journal and at number 2-4 main journal. Because there is no oil leaving to oil the rockershafts. With that being done, if your worried about to much oil at the rockers you can restrict it at the top of the block or underneath the rockershaft. Rockershaft would be more thoughtful because its easier to change a restrictor there rather then under the head. The groove in the stud is only for a positive passage to the rockers. Like oldmanmopar said if the stud happens to be against that side of the hole where the feed hole is it will want to block the hole off.

 

[Bakerlite]

Chevy threads are 7/16 how much more can you taper them down. Your not thinking with your dip stick jimmy.

I know they are 7/16
I'm pointing out the design of the bolt..

 

[Oldmanmopar]

The way bolts, and studs are designed, they have "stretch" that's what allows them to hold tension. That stretch happens in the "beam" area, NOT the threads. Same principle as torque to yield bolts, they dont fail in the thread area unless you damage the threads. Your "solution" is not needed on 99.9% of the high performance builds being done currently.

I can't even answer you. Because you make up stories to make yourself right. These are not stretch studs. There is no way you are stretching the shaft on the stud before you rip the threads off . Just look at the Diameter and compare to the inside of the last 1/2 13 thread. And then think of what you are saying. Stretch stud? LMFAO

 

[Bakerlite]

From ARP.
"The modulus of elasticity of all alloy steels is exactly the same – 30,000,000 psi. This is true whether it is heat-treated or not – whether it is 100,000 psi strength level or 300,000 psi. Metals are like a spring – put a load on them and they will stretch – double the load and they will stretch double. This is important in connecting rod bolts because by measuring the stretch we really are measuring the load. Load is what is important and measuring stretch of a given size and configuration bolt will indicate how much load is stretching the bolt."

 

[Rat Bastid]

I can't even answer you. Because you make up stories to make yourself right. These are not stretch studs. There is no way you are stretching the shaft on the stud before you rip the threads off . Just look at the Diameter and compare to the inside of the last 1/2 13 thread. And then think of what you are saying. Stretch stud? LMFAO

ALL fasteners stretch. That’s what keeps them tight. If they didn’t stretch they would be loose.

 

[Rat Bastid]

From ARP.
"The modulus of elasticity of all alloy steels is exactly the same – 30,000,000 psi. This is true whether it is heat-treated or not – whether it is 100,000 psi strength level or 300,000 psi. Metals are like a spring – put a load on them and they will stretch – double the load and they will stretch double. This is important in connecting rod bolts because by measuring the stretch we really are measuring the load. Load is what is important and measuring stretch of a given size and configuration bolt will indicate how much load is stretching the bolt."

‘Treed but correct

 

[Oldmanmopar]

They make studs that go from 7/16 threads to 3/8 shank for chevy stuff for a reason. If ARP wanted to, or if there was a need for it they could make a stud that is 1/2 x 7/16 and you could use that if you thought you needed it. IDK, maybe they do make them. I’ve never asked.

Are you aware that you just contradicted everything you were saying about the 1/2 shank stud being weak at the shank in earlier posts. You said that grove cut it the shank made it weak. But now you are saying they could make a 1/2" thread with a 7/16 shank and it would hold up.

The stud measures .510 at the shank. and the ARP bolt Measures .440 at the shank. The Hole in and Edelbrock head I just measured is .530 so the bolt gives .045 clearance for oil per side. the stud gives .010 per side.

He is cutting at .070 groove in the stud with a balled end mill That is .440 left . Thats a lot of material left on the stud . More then a bolt. Because it is not the total diameter cut. And confidence that the oil is not blocked off.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Are you aware that you just contradicted everything you were saying about the 1/2 shank stud being weak at the shank in earlier posts. You said that grove cut it the shank made it weak. But now you are saying they could make a 1/2" thread with a 7/16 shank and it would hold up.

The stud measures .510 at the shank. and the ARP bolt Measures .440 at the shank. The Hole in and Edelbrock head I just measured is .530 so the bolt gives .045 clearance for oil per side. the stud gives .010 per side.

He is cutting at .070 groove in the stud with a balled end mill That is .440 left . Thats a lot of material left on the stud . More then a bolt. Because it is not the total diameter cut. And confidence that the oil is not blocked off.

No I didn’t. Big difference between cutting a groove in the stud and a bolt manufactured with an undersized shank. Two totally different things.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

From ARP.
"The modulus of elasticity of all alloy steels is exactly the same – 30,000,000 psi. This is true whether it is heat-treated or not – whether it is 100,000 psi strength level or 300,000 psi. Metals are like a spring – put a load on them and they will stretch – double the load and they will stretch double. This is important in connecting rod bolts because by measuring the stretch we really are measuring the load. Load is what is important and measuring stretch of a given size and configuration bolt will indicate how much load is stretching the bolt."

Listen Mr. scientific engineer with the 300 million PSI Heat treated double stretch alloy spring steel bolts. These are not rod bolts. They are head studs. He has a stretch gauge for rod bolts. How would you measure the stretch on a head stud. You cannot. But a man of your expertise would know that

Stretch bolts for heads you toss and get new bolts everytime. Studs are usually used Many times unless you over torque them and ruin them When slamming a valve up through the head with a piston.

When he would pull the heads off the Nitro engines He used them over and over and then over again until the block is resleeved . Then they come out. If they look good on a thread pitch gauge and they go right back in. As long as they torque to spec. They are special cut and are to dam expensive to throw away .

I am sure you saw the thread I just posted with parts for my engine, There is tons of money in my engine and I am tearing it down to go bigger and better with all new parts . And guess what Steve is using over for the 4th time Those studs.

So you know what I think of your metallurgy lecture the The "modulus of elasticity" Pull the elastic on your underwear and let it fly.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

No I didn’t. Big difference between cutting a groove in the stud and a bolt manufactured with an undersized shank. Two totally different things.

Well they don't make a head bolt set without the .440 shank. and they don't make a stud set without a .510 shank. And the oil does get blocked off on some engines using studs. You can never tell me they all end up in the center of that .530 hole and smaller

You know All of this because some of you engineers just have to come up with a problem with how and old race engine builder improved the oiling on our engine. And all I wanted to do is share it with you all. This has been done for many years on many LA small blocks from Dave's shop , Other shops and my sons.

This was about a precise .070 slot cut in a dam head stud. And from the start not one member asked the depth or what else was done to improve oiling. Good night and may you all spin a bearing or two. LMFAO.

 

[Bakerlite]

These are not rod bolts.

Even though they mention rod bolts as an example, it's not specific to them.

 

[Bewy]

OM Mopar,

I pointed this out to you very early in this thread that machining/cutting a groove or notch in a bolt weakens it. It weakens it because the grain structure has been interrupted. A fastener with a necked down [ reduced shank ] is a different animal as the grain flow [ & hence strength of the fastener ] is not interrupted.
Nobody is having a go at you, certainly not me, just trying to point out that the method you are using to obtain a gap for oil flow is not the best way of doing it....

 

[Oldmanmopar]

OM Mopar,

I pointed this out to you very early in this thread that machining/cutting a groove or notch in a bolt weakens it. It weakens it because the grain structure has been interrupted. A fastener with a necked down [ reduced shank ] is a different animal as the grain flow [ & hence strength of the fastener ] is not interrupted.
Nobody is having a go at you, certainly not me, just trying to point out that the method you are using to obtain a gap for oil flow is not the best way of doing it....

Then you tell me what is the better and easier way? Would it be cutting a groove in someones new head from the top of the hole to the gasket surface of the head?


Been working just fine on many engines built by shops other then ours. When was the last time you torqued a stud and snapped one. And if you did you might want to look at the weak spot. It is at the base of the last thread on the coarse side. Don't y'all think the studs were tested after this modification?

What would be your suggestion when using studs. Edelbrock heads come with the two bolts . You could use them in place of the studs needing to maintain oil flow but that is not why they include them with the heads. We have been collecting them if anyone needs any.

There is nothing to keep the stud centered in the .030 clearance hole in the head . If the stud is off .015 in the hole toward the intake side there goes your direct oil flow.

What would cause a more critical failure? No Fresh Oil to the valve gear and springs. Or a stud that you assume may be weakened .

The proper and easiest way would be to use the bolts. They keep the shank centered with the larger Diameter under the head. But then why buy studs?

The compression we run on our engine with these studs is up there and never a failure. So I don't know how they would fail on some wannabe race engines . The reason for stating compression and RPMs on our engine in a prior post was for comparison. But the engineers called that insignificant because not everyone runs that set up. If I say white you all say black and if I say black you all say white.

You can take the info I shared and use it or not. I really don't care to hear stupid criticism from book smart people that never think out of the box. As I said the stud was tested for higher then the recommended torque. If your happy with what you have then just move on. You all may find teaching the CRT book easier to understand C ritical R acing T opics LOL

 

[Bakerlite]

Whatever..

 

[Bewy]

OM Mopar,

I made my suggestion to fix your problem waaaay back in this thread which was to enlarge the bolt hole in the head by about 0.010" for oil clearance.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

OM Mopar,

I made my suggestion to fix your problem waaaay back in this thread which was to enlarge the bolt hole in the head by about 0.010" for oil clearance.

The required bolt is .070 smaller then the stud. That is .035 per side. And the bolt has the enlarged area under the head to keep the shank in the center.

increasing the hole size .010 is only .005 per side and the stud doesn't always end up in the center after torque. Not a guarantee the passages will be left open.. Yes it will help but i wouldn't rely on it to keep the passages leading in and out of the bolt hole uncovered

 

[Bakerlite]

Arp will do reduced shank if people want them.
Subaru 1/2 conversion studs.
Custom ARP 1/2" Head Stud kit, fits all EJ and FA engines - Outfront Motorsports

 

[NC Engine Builder]

Arp will do reduced shank if people want them.
Subaru 1/2 conversion studs.
Custom ARP 1/2" Head Stud kit, fits all EJ and FA engines - Outfront Motorsports

He doesn't even understand what keeps a bolt tight, your wasting your time with him.

 

[Bakerlite]

Yeah, probably..

 

[pittsburghracer]

He doesn't even understand what keeps a bolt tight, your wasting your time with him.

He should ask his son. Maybe they use 271 loc-tite. Lol

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I can't even answer you. Because you make up stories to make yourself right. These are not stretch studs. There is no way you are stretching the shaft on the stud before you rip the threads off . Just look at the Diameter and compare to the inside of the last 1/2 13 thread. And then think of what you are saying. Stretch stud? LMFAO

You cant answer me because you dont even understand how and why a bolt OR stud stays tight. @Bakerlite even posted DIRECTLY from ARP the correct information, but your too upset and angry to comprehend what many of us are trying to tell you. Your pitching a tantrum, over something you dont understand, claiming I'm "making up stories" all because your upset people see through your charade of "We are the best! Take our advice" My son knows more than any of you!! Sheesh

 

[Oldmanmopar]

You need to troll on. I told you what we have done and been doing it for years and it works great. I Started the thread. No stud failure, no oiling issues and no customers complaining for several years. I guess I am just dreaming this fucken **** up. And because you know it all I never had those studs in an Engine and re used 3 times going to be 4

If you want to use the idea. I am sure Dave won't get mad. If you don't want to try it then just shut the **** up already. I nor anyone else needs your input on my thread. Start your own ***** and complaint bullshit thread you believe in. and let everyone believe who they want. We're all tired of your big know it all mouth.

Like I said, I really don't care what you think or info you have to pull off of the web. If this works and it does, Who cares what you think if you can't move on your jealous your jealous . LMFAO . Why do you always have to put people down to make yourself look intelligent.

I thought you were a good friend or are you just a friend? And what the **** do you care about what I say anyway?

Why don't you help the site with pictures of your expertise work and knowledge?

I am not angry I just like making an *** out of you.. Who do you think you are Richard Petty. with that photo shopped 1/25th scale Dart Nascar model for an avatar. LMFAOAY.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Arp will do reduced shank if people want them.
Subaru 1/2 conversion studs.
Custom ARP 1/2" Head Stud kit, fits all EJ and FA engines - Outfront Motorsports

Steve uses them . he also closes decks On Subarus and grinds all the lifter cups for a race shop. He also uses Time Certs on them, Personally I am sick of looking at Subarus. He made his own torque plates to bore and line bore those Engines. There is a lot of work out there for Subarus

 

[Phreakish]

How's this for engineering:
A .510 stud is 25% larger than than a .440 bolt.
A .07"x.07" slot would reduce the cross sectional area of a bolt shank by about 2.5%. Both shear and tensile strength vary linearly with area.

If anyone is torquing within 2% of failure, they've got other issues.

Losing 2.5% on just one fastener would be fine. Even if the slot caused a stress riser. A good deburr and edge break would help eliminate most stress concentration cause by the slot anyway. Doing the same with a flat, a groove, or any other means which minimizes change in cross section would be equally fine too.

Any interruption of the material grain would be inconsequential, as those factors have a greater impact on fatigue life and crack propagation and not ultimate strength. Studs also aren't TTY and so aren't being plastically deformed. Plus, the grain direction is along the axis of the bolt and so is the modification, so the impact would be minimal.