Leaking issues in my 200 4R - any gurus available?

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Mopar to ya

Mopar to ya

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Last year I changed the filter and pan gasket in the 200 4R because it had been two and a half years and the pan gasket had a minor leak. I removed the top hat filter seal and installed a new one, then installed the filter. I had some leakage and had to retorque the damn nuts a few times, then it was fine. Toward fall last year I had a ton of smoke when I came to a stop and I could smell transmission fluid. Got it on a hoist and didn't see any major leak. The next half dozen rides it was fine, no smoke and no leaks. One of the last rides of the year I was coming home on the highway. It was late and the road was clear so I brought it up to 140 for a quick time, then ran at 120 for a few miles and 100 for the last two. When I got off on my exit it was smoking bad again. I got it on the hoist and no fluid running down anywhere, though the headers obviously had burnt fluid on them. Flash forward to this year. I've had it out a dozen times and it was fine. Raced a few times and everything was great. Two days ago I'm loafing along at 55 and I suddenly see smoke billowing out behind me. I pulled over and could see a steady drip every 1/2 second or so from the front passenger side of the pan. I didn't want to take a chance so I had it towed to my work. It looked like it was the pan. I put on a new gasket and used a little silicone just in case the pan wasn't true. I cleaned everything off and ran it for an hour in gear and not a drop leaked. I drove home forty miles and when I got to my exit it was smoking just a bit. When I got home I looked and it was dripping at the same spot, though nowhere near as bad as the night before. This morning I drove it to work, slowly and carefully. I let it shift automatically instead of manually shifting. It was the same 40 miles. I stopped for gas and saw no leaks. I got to work, no leaks. I went out after a few hours, not a drop on the ground. I now suspect it is leaking from the vent on top of the transmission and running down. I suspect it may be heat related. I wonder if I did something funky with the filter? It drives and shifts perfectly otherwise. Anyone have any ideas? Sorry about the lengthy post, but I wanted to get all the details out there.
 
Hey there fellow 2004R swap guy!! As far as I know fluid will only burp out of the top vent if the tranny is over filled. But the rubber seal on the dip stick tube can give you a leak in front on the passenger's side. Have you tried wiping it down real good and clean/dry then when it does leak find the source of the leak by tracing the flow to it's origin? I've never had a problem with any pan leaks and I never used any silicone or anything on the gasket. The pan could be bent around the bolt holes if you over torque a factory pan. Most of the after market pans have heavy rails and don't bend/distort very easy.
Sounds like an annoying problem:banghead:.

Treblig
 
Front corner of the pan is going to be KD cable seal, filler tube or pan gasket.
Venting comes out the bottom of the housing (especially after you stop) because it runs off the interior of the bell housing and make a fair puddle where you park.

Now if there is a problem with the filter causing foaming it could burp out the vent, but still straight off the bottom of the housing and mostly after a stop and park.

I'll bet you 5 bucks it one of the three already mentioned (Pan, filler, KD)
A slight possibility of the servo cover Oring.
 
I have a different question for you 200 guys. How much torque and HP are you putting thru your trannys? I want to get some user ideas before I have Lonnie build me one. I guess they're getting harder to get cores for and I don't want to be a year from now with a busted tranny that can't hold 500+ hp,and now way to replace it. I 'm gonna drive it a lot,not just weekends. I like not trashing the floor on an A body with to 2004R. Thanks.
 
cuda620 said:
I have a different question for you 200 guys. How much torque and HP are you putting thru your trannys? I want to get some user ideas before I have Lonnie build me one. I guess they're getting harder to get cores for and I don't want to be a year from now with a busted tranny that can't hold 500+ hp,and now way to replace it. I 'm gonna drive it a lot,not just weekends. I like not trashing the floor on an A body with to 2004R. Thanks.
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If you go to the Monster transmission site or one of the other High Horse Power trans builders they will list all the "juicy" parts they use when they build one for you. Just go to "stage" of transmission that will handle your horsepower and get the list of mods made by one of those builders.

Treblig
 
Mopar to ya said:
I suspect it may be heat related. I wonder if I did something funky with the filter? It drives and shifts perfectly otherwise. Anyone have any ideas? Sorry about the lengthy post, but I wanted to get all the details out there.
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Clean it off again real good. Get a can of Desenex powder foot spray and spray the trans down. Drive it with a little spirit, and then check it. That may help pinpoint the area where it's leaking.
 
I like that Desenex idea. Thanks.

I'm putting what I now believe is around 420 something hp through my Lonnie built Stage 2 200R4 with a 3000 stall lock-up converter. He rates the Stage 2 at 750hp. It's handled my current power level with no disappointments, and my car hooks up hard thanks to the Nitto Drag Radials.

Within the next month, I'm putting a significantly bigger cam/springs in it which should bring me up to the 510+hp level. I trust the transmission will be fine at that level too. :burnout:
 
cuda620 said:
I have a different question for you 200 guys. How much torque and HP are you putting thru your trannys? I want to get some user ideas before I have Lonnie build me one. I guess they're getting harder to get cores for and I don't want to be a year from now with a busted tranny that can't hold 500+ hp,and now way to replace it. I 'm gonna drive it a lot,not just weekends. I like not trashing the floor on an A body with to 2004R. Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'm putting out 500hp and 548 ft/lbs of torque. Been good for three years so far and I beat the **** out of it. Rolling burnouts, track racing, street racing, it takes it all.
 
The vent on a 200R4 is on top and points toward the passenger side of the transmission ... right about the front right of the pan. It fits so tightly in the tunnel I can't see anything up high. I suspect it's coming out the vent and is heat related. I drove it one cool morning and not a drop leaked. I blew out the cooler to be sure it was clear. That same evening it was smoking and leaking. Didn't stop me from racing and embarrassing a Corvette, however.

I spoke to Art Carr, who built the tranny. He says 100% it is getting too hot and pushing fluid out the vent. He asked if I was running a cooler, which I am. He asked what style, and it is a cheap tube and fin style. He said to get rid of it and install a stacked plate style cooler. He says they are the best and most efficient coolers available. I asked him why it was fine for three years and he said I was probably riding right on the edge and age has made everything less efficient and now I'm over that edge. I bought a B&M Supercooler stacked plate cooler. It gets installed tomorrow night, so we will see.
 
Mopar to ya said:
The vent on a 200R4 is on top and points toward the passenger side of the transmission ... right about the front right of the pan. It fits so tightly in the tunnel I can't see anything up high. I suspect it's coming out the vent and is heat related. I drove it one cool morning and not a drop leaked. I blew out the cooler to be sure it was clear. That same evening it was smoking and leaking. Didn't stop me from racing and embarrassing a Corvette, however.

I spoke to Art Carr, who built the tranny. He says 100% it is getting too hot and pushing fluid out the vent. He asked if I was running a cooler, which I am. He asked what style, and it is a cheap tube and fin style. He said to get rid of it and install a stacked plate style cooler. He says they are the best and most efficient coolers available. I asked him why it was fine for three years and he said I was probably riding right on the edge and age has made everything less efficient and now I'm over that edge. I bought a B&M Supercooler stacked plate cooler. It gets installed tomorrow night, so we will see.
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Still could be sucking air on the pickup and foaming the fluid and that's why it pushing out.
Getting on the pipes is why it would smoke.
Just a thought on something I have seen before a couple of times.

If it's actually getting hot enough to boil the fluid the fluid will smell burned, so if it doesn't smell burned you need to make sure it not sucking air around the filter or pickup if especially if there is an extended one on it.
It would also explain why it had always been fine before but now blows fluid out.
 
The smoke is because it drips directly onto the H pipe behind the headers. The fluid is clean and not burnt. I use Amsoil synthetic fluid and it looks like it just came out of the bottle. The filter was new last year and I changed the 'top hat' seal for the filter at that time. Doesn't mean it couldn't have failed, but it would seem unusual for it to happen all of a sudden. Then again, this whole thing is unusual. They are now calling for rain tomorrow, so I probably won't drive it into work to install the cooler. Maybe I'll lay on my back and do it at home, but I really don't see that happening.
 
Mopar to ya said:
The smoke is because it drips directly onto the H pipe behind the headers. The fluid is clean and not burnt. I use Amsoil synthetic fluid and it looks like it just came out of the bottle. The filter was new last year and I changed the 'top hat' seal for the filter at that time. Doesn't mean it couldn't have failed, but it would seem unusual for it to happen all of a sudden. Then again, this whole thing is unusual. They are now calling for rain tomorrow, so I probably won't drive it into work to install the cooler. Maybe I'll lay on my back and do it at home, but I really don't see that happening.
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Yep, I know how that goes.

The smoke from the pipes could be just from the fluid pushing out and not from the trans being hot was my point.
I didn't know if you knew it was a possibility instead of thinking it was hot and that was why it was pushing fluid and smoking off the pipes.
Kinda like the, did the car overheat and THEN coolant blew out, or did the coolant get pushed out and THEN it overheated? question. :D


You know people with computers tell me all the time that "It worked fine until this happened" and I tell them if they have ever gone out and gotten in their car and the battery was dead, it's kind of the same thing.
Almost everything works fine until it doesn't. :D
 
TrailBeast said:
Yep, I know how that goes.

The smoke from the pipes could be just from the fluid pushing out and not from the trans being hot was my point.
I didn't know if you knew it was a possibility instead of thinking it was hot and that was why it was pushing fluid and smoking off the pipes.
Kinda like the, did the car overheat and THEN coolant blew out, or did the coolant get pushed out and THEN it overheated? question. :D

You know people with computers tell me all the time that "It worked fine until this happened" and I tell them if they have ever gone out and gotten in their car and the battery was dead, it's kind of the same thing.
Almost everything works fine until it doesn't. :D
Click to expand...

I use that exact same line when customers tell me there car never did that before. Everything works until it doesn't. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try it out this weekend. There's a lot of rain in the forecast for the next week.
 
Well, I installed the new cooler. Got a B&M Supercooler stacked plate cooler. Made sure all the lines were run properly. They were not on the old set up. In the radiator, out the radiator to the cooler, out the cooler to the return line of the transmission. I installed some brackets to keep the cooler about an inch in front of the radiator rather than using the zip ties through the radiator. It looks great and should cool well. On the way home I still leaked and smoked. This is beginning to piss me off. It shifts perfectly, but appears to leak from the top down the right side and it literally drips off the right front corner of the pan. A drip every second or so. I guess I'll call Art Carr again on Monday. I'm going to change the filter again just in case it isn't set in there right.

View attachment Transmission cooler.jpg
 
I ran my cooler in front of the radiator (plumbed the same as yours) but a little off to the side. I live in a very hot/humid climate and according to my trans temp gauge my 2004R never gets above 180 (no matter what). It keeps the trans fluid so cool I have to give a little time to warm up because it's better for the transmission internal parts if the fluid is at least warm before you abuse it too much.

Treblig
 
I mounted mine in the drain plug.

treblig
 

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I thought it would have to be in the transmission to be accurate. I was thinking of welding two bungs in the trans pan, one for a drain and one for a temp sensor.
 
You'll want the sensor in the pan. That way you'll know what temp the oil is being picked up through the filter. Some will argue this though. If you had a cast pan, you could drill and tap right into the pan and screw in your temp sensor. That's what I have done now in the 727 pan and plan on doing the same when I swap to the 200-4R.

I'm surprised it's still getting hot though after the cooler swap. I never see temps over 180 in mine with a 5500 stall converter and cooler. Full throttle pulls, stop and go traffic, doesn't matter. I don't run the cooler lines through the radiator either. IMO the radiator is going to keep the oil hotter if the engine is always operating above 200 degrees.
 
I don't know that it is getting hot. Art Carr seems to think it is and is pushing out the vent. It's coming out the vent, but I don't know why. It shifts perfectly, so I don't believe there is anything wrong internally. Transmissions work best at @ 165 degrees. Plus, liquid to liquid cooling is way more efficient than air to liquid.
 
If you think it might be coming from the vent then all you have to do it attach a long hose to the vent hose into a baggie or something to catch the fluid...this way you'll have your proof as to where the fluid is coming from. I would duct tape the baggie to the side of the transmission so it doesn't sag and leak.

Also, one more important thing........I researched these transmissions quite a bit before I put one in my Barracuda. I read one article about a guy who showed the best way to replace the 2004R filter for racing and heavy use. As it turns out the filter will "suck" air, if you don't take the effort to seal it with silicone around the edges. Do some research on this issue because the problem started after you changed your filter and air in the fluid will cause "foaming"!! I'm surprised Art Carr didn't warn you about this issue. Check this out:



treblig
 
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There is no way to get to the vent hose without removing the transmission, which I am hoping not to have to do. I am going to change the filter. I'll seal it up and see what happens. Thanks!
 
Do you run a sealed dipstick? I started having trouble with pushing fluid out of the seals when I installed one in my car.
 
Yes, but it the same dipstick and tube I've used since I installed it. I am changing the filter tomorrow. It better work. The first car show of the year is Sunday.
 
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