lifter galley crossover tube

[T56MaxTorq]

I'm saying the rocker feed is self limiting. You are saying it's an open hole, I'm saying it isn't. The flow is controlled by the leakage at the rocker, and oil to the adjuster. You can feed it with a 1 inch hole and flow and pressure will be the same.

Guys are blaming one thing when the issue is the other.

I'm not trying to start an argument because all of this is good info and a good debate.

I highly disagree with you, YR. The oil at #4 is also pumped up to the cam and if it is grooved, that oil ends up feeding 1 cam bearing, the entire rocker shaft to include all 8 rockers and their adjusters. That's a big oil leak compared to the crank. So much that when you install some aftermarket rockers and shafts, they advise you may have to install a restrictor plug in the shaft pedestal to maintain oil pressure. Plus, the oil going into the crank as soon as it leaves the bearing has to fight against the centrifugal force of oil being thrown away from the crank centerline. Probably not much resistance in that aspect but these little things add up at a time where oil splits to the head and crank.

I'm not so sure on the timing aspect of it either. If I'm not mistaken, when you install the main bearing in the saddle, the oil port hole in the bearing is at 12:00, so that would correct any timing problem of the oil galley being drilled at 10:00 towards the passenger main galley.

 

[yellow rose]

I'm not arguing. I'm hoping to save someone grief. Oil loss at the crank is controlled by bearing clearance. Not Rod side clearance or anything else.

The rockers, even with a groove in the cam only require the oil that leaks past the sides, and just like the crank only leaks what the clearance between the rocker and the shaft.

The only other oil leak is when the rocker is on the seat and oil goes to the adjuster.

You can move the oil hole in the main bearing anywhere you want it. The rods must get full pressure, full flow when the piston is ~70 degrees ATDC. It's common engineering. Chrysler and ford fudged it for packaging reasons.

You can do anything you want, but if you want to make power a over 8k you have to fix the oil timing.

Look at how Chevy did it. That's how it should be. Chrysler got it wrong.

 

[19DART66]

It was always my understanding that after blocking the oil at the #1 main oil passage on the right oil gallery the oil would have no place to go except to the #2,3,4 mains and then the cross over tube would feed the left oil gallery and the #1 main from opposite direction. Which kept a constant flow of oil to the causal #4 main and #5 and 6 rods bearings. I have done this mode to all of my small blocks except one, my first one a 340 that starved #4 main and spun 5 and 6 rod bearings at 7500 rpm's. Since I have used this mode none of my engines have ever showed an oil starvation problem, lucky maybe but at this stage of my life I will stay with what works for me.

 

[moper]

If you understand hydraulic systems and how they work you will know that oil moving so fast that it can't turn at #4 but can at #3 is someones that does not understand what he's talking about. If a system has 100psi and
you start adding leaks IE rods, mains, cam, lifters the pressure will drop, but the pressure will be the same on the left as on the right at all times because it's a hydraulic system.

Tell it to those that came up with it. I think I was 1-2 at that point...lol. I don't believe it's a worthwhile mod. Never have. But - it is in the old books. Much like mushroom tappets.

 

[yellow rose]

Tell it to those that came up with it. I think I was 1-2 at that point...lol. I don't believe it's a worthwhile mod. Never have. But - it is in the old books. Much like mushroom tappets.

Funny!!!! My next engine is getting mushroom lifters.

 

[Rapid Robert]

The fix I used was to block off all oil from the factory feeds. Cross drill the crank and and drill and tap the main caps and feed oil in from the bottom. This is a PITA but it works. That's the only fix.

I am interested! How do I do this? more details please.

 

[brian6pac]

Wouldn't full groove mains be a lot easier ? All rods would have full pressure all the time.

 

[yellow rose]

Wouldn't full groove mains be a lot easier ? All rods would have full pressure all the time.

As I've said, you can use full groove bearings. But you never get full pressure, full volume to the rods unless the hole in the block is lined up with the hole in the crank. The oil is also not there at the right time.

I realize most people have no idea what oil timing is because the book writers, and even Chrysler never put it in print.

It's real, it's required and the engineering is sound. Chrysler got it wrong for manufacturing sake. And not to dump on them, I doubt that when this stuff was engineered anyone ever thought guys would be making 2 HP/CID at 8000 plus. So you can't really fault them when you understand why they did it. Simply because it was easier to do it the way they did.

I also said the crank feed hole was at about 10:00 but I went out and look edits actually closer to 11:00. That's still a long way from NOON. And at 7500 or more, think how fast the hole in the crank goes by the hole in the block. I used to have the time figured and written down. I can't find it, but I can tell you it was something like .00000000012 seconds at 8500 or some crazy number like that.

 

[draginmopars]

I don't know what I'm babbling about, (I'm 60)
before the internet, all we had was what someone MIGHT share, and a few books.
so, it's good to see discussions like this.

Anyway, I just refreshed a stroker (4 years - idle or wide open)
reason to pull it was preventive maintence and hitting the rev (7000)...
broken rear twice, before going to a Dana, then broke a input shaft.
the rod bearings had lost tension, everything else check fine.
replaced main and rod bearings, new timing chain and gear, oil pump and pick-up tube.
could had only replaced the rod bearings, But, I know I'm gonna beat on it .
now for the part where I'm gonna get beat on...lol

My theory is the oil pump will pump 125 lbs pressure IF the relief valve stuck shut

My oil pressure runs 40-80 with reg mains and 20-80 with full grove mains
oil pump is opened up / ported to main cap
Heads are full time oiling with a .080 restrictor
in the head.
cam bearings are drilled for a .125" oil hole
timing chain gets oil by a .060" pee hole from the left oil gallery.
eng with full mains has both oil gallery front plugs drilled for chain oiling.
each eng also has the drivers rear plug drilled for dist. gear oiling.

just believe nothing runs like a "Well oiled machine"

Testing this theory 6.6 sec at a time....

 

[T56MaxTorq]

YR, maybe I'm missing something about the timing. My magnum block, with bearing installed, plumbs oil to the crank at the 12 o'clock position. The main oil gallery going towards the main bearing is offset at 11:00 or whatever it may be, but is corrected by the port hole in the bearing and "times" it to 12:00.

If the crank is spinning 7500, sure the total time of the crank hole passing the bearing is shorter, but the frequency of it passing by is more.

 

[moper]

I "think" YR is not talking about the passages in the block. He's talking about the passages in the crank, feeding the rod bearings. What he's saying makes sense to me. If, and only if you are one who is running around at very high (for street and multi-use engines) rpms. The "average guy", and even most above average guys, will never need to worry about it. Use an engine and it wears. Use it harder and it wears faster. So bearings losing crush and rings losing tension are going to happen in the best of engines that are run hard often. That's why parts choices and machining quality become critical.

 

[yellow rose]

I "think" YR is not talking about the passages in the block. He's talking about the passages in the crank, feeding the rod bearings. What he's saying makes sense to me. If, and only if you are one who is running around at very high (for street and multi-use engines) rpms. The "average guy", and even most above average guys, will never need to worry about it. Use an engine and it wears. Use it harder and it wears faster. So bearings losing crush and rings losing tension are going to happen in the best of engines that are run hard often. That's why parts choices and machining quality become critical.

Exactly what I'm saying. THANK YOU for making it clear in a few words.

My point is if you are having bearing issues and you are below 7800 RPM you have OTHER issues and a crossover tube won't fix it. If you have the balls to go tighter than that, and try to make power doing it, you will have to correct the oil timing somehow or you will be lucky to get a full pass with the rods still in the block.

The best things you can do is make sure you have enough oil in the pan, reduce restriction on the SUCTION side of the pump, full groove mains, a high volume pump to get more oil there quicker and do anything you can to control windage.

Oil timing is important. I don't have a magnum block to look at, but my memory is the oil timing is the same as an LA engine. When I get home today, I'll go out and look at a 340 block I have out there.

Like I said, you can put the hole in the bearing anywhere in the circle. It doesn't correct oil timing.

I'm not going to name drop, but some very successful Chrysler racers have told me some of the **** they have done to fix it. They had different ways of fixing it , but all accomplished the same thing...it corrected oil timing.

The best way is to get a block with the feed hole in the correct location.

 

[Rapid Robert]

Yellow Rose, would you detail for us how to alter the block and or crank to resolve this? Thank you for your time. Excellent material & I woulda never guessed it was needed! I may not turn that high but I wanna be prepared for if I do in the future builds. & the jist of it is you want the crank fed from the block 12 o'clock vertical hole when the rod journal is 70 deg past TDC?

 

[yellow rose]

Yellow Rose, would you detail for us how to alter the block and or crank to resolve this? Thank you for your time. Excellent material & I woulda never guessed it was needed! I may not turn that high but I wanna be prepared for if I do in the future builds. & the jist of it is you want the crank fed from the block 12 o'clock vertical hole when the rod journal is 70 deg past TDC?

The guy who originally developed it is who I bought it from. He way was simple. And it was hid in the pan. No one knew it was there. The problem with his system was some of the oil going to the bearings wasn't filtered. All the oil eventually went through the filter, but the crank was getting unfiltered oil. I'll describe how it was original done.

The first thing is you need a pan that is big enough to fit all the stuff in, or you have to make it external.
The machine work is pretty simple.
First, tap all the main bearing feed holes at the main bearing. I use a set screw. You want to stop all the oil coming in from factory oil gallery. Also, at the number 1 main bearing, block the oil going to the drivers side lifter gallery. You can't turn that kind of RPM on hydraulics so you don't need oil there.
On main caps 1-4, mill or file a flat spot on the main cap. Find the exact center and drill and tap the main cap for 1/8 pipe.
You have to make a distribution block to feed the mains. They made a simple block out of round tubing about 1 inch in diameter. Drill and tap 4 1/8th pipe holes in the 1inch tubing. This is where it gets difficult for some.
You have to drill and tap a hole in the main cap where the oil goes from the pump through the cap to the filter. It's 3/8ths pipe. Screw a 90 degree 3/8 X 3/8 male/male into the main cap so it is perpendicular to the cap mating surface. Screw on the distribution block.
There are only two steps left.
You make up number 4 lines that run from each hole in the distribution block and to each main cap except number 5 main. If you have a windage tray, you'll need to make some holes for the lines to fit though. With the right pan, it all fits easily in there, and nobody will know it.
The last step is to cross drill the crank. What that does is actually change the oil timing so that when the crank is ~70 degrees past TDC, you will get full pressure, full flow oil to the rods, right when it needs to be there. I still used full groove bearings.

The rods will now oil well past 10k. I regularly turned the first iteration 9200 but valve spring a valve train life was next to zero. So I cut it back some.

It's that simple.
Maybe later I'll explain how I moved the distribution out of the pan so all the oil was filtered all the time. It's really simple. I also plugged the bypass in the pump and made the bypass external. I could change oil pressure from a low of about 50 to a high of about 150.
I also made the pick up so it was a dual line pick up.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

I got ya now YR. misunderstanding. To me, 12 o'clock means straight up, as the engine is installed in the vehicle, looking aft - forward. What you're referring to, in my mind, is tapping the main caps at 6 o'clock.

Very cool mod. Thank you for sharing. The unfiltered oil part is sketchy tho. I couldn't imagine revving that high on unfiltered oil on a nice, balanced crankshaft. Using a large bulkhead fitting and plumbing the manifold out the oil pan would be a simple procedure.

You're right about a lot of these other mods too, the pickup tube, as mentioned is a major restriction and if left in stock form, will probably cavitate the pump. Pulling oil uphill is a tough job.

 

[mbaird]

Where can I get a larger pickup?
Thinking about a Kevco
I thought about this while I was doing the oil mods to my pump and galleys...

 

[Rapid Robert]

Yellow Rose thank you & I must admit that is the most unusual mod I have ever run across but I'm gonna do it! OK you drill/tap/plug off the OE 12 0'clock saddle/bearing interface & instead plumb oil thru the cap 180 from that at 6 oclock (I ain't sure how I will plumb to there but I will figure something out). I'm still in the dark on the crank drilling, (as the crank would be in the eng) do I in effect put each rod throw at 70 ATDC & drill the crank straight up (& all the way thru the journal) at 6 o'clock? Any easy tricks to figure the 70 deg position? protractor? Your time is much appreciated. RR

 

[Duane]

I believe this ultimately depends on what type of cam you're using. If you're using a cam that has fully grooved bearing races, then I believe the mod would help. #4 main also feeds the cam, then the rocker shafts. If it's oiling the rockers full time because of the cam, then the pressure drop is going to be higher at #4 because it has a bigger bleed vs #3. #2 is the same way, but apparently doesn't have issues because the rate of flow at the oil galley is significantly less. Remember, "An object in motion tends to stay in motion."

This may explain why some have issues and others don't. They may have different cams, or restrictors going to the heads. IMO, just drill the oil galley to the mains to 5/16"



The pressure of a fluid in a system will always drop at different areas in the system. The oil filter sees higher pressure than the drivers rocker shaft. Same goes for the right/left oil galleys and the rocker shafts. Might not be a lot of pressure drop, but it's there.

I lost #2&4 main bearings after 40 runs. Cam was fully grooved on the cam journals. Previous cam had no grooves. Had no main bearing trouble. To me this proves that just because you have a big volume pump and lots of oil pressure does not mean all your components have adequate volume. It is a hydraulic system but it is not a sealed system like the brakes in your car. It is a controlled leakage system.

 

[Duane]

You can have ditch cut in the cam journal. It affects Rod bearing oiling zero. Has zero affect. Besides, no matter how you do it, the oil going to the rockers is self limiting, even with a grooved journal. As RPM goes up, the time for oil flow goes down. It also limits because oil flow is controlled by the leakage at the rocker and oil feed to the cup and adjuster.

It's all about oil timing at the crank. Nothing else.

That has not been my experience. I ran a grooved cam and lost the bearing crush after 40 runs. To much oil to the cam and heads and not enough to the main bearings.

 

[Duane]

I'm not arguing. I'm hoping to save someone grief. Oil loss at the crank is controlled by bearing clearance. Not Rod side clearance or anything else.

The rockers, even with a groove in the cam only require the oil that leaks past the sides, and just like the crank only leaks what the clearance between the rocker and the shaft.

The only other oil leak is when the rocker is on the seat and oil goes to the adjuster.

You can move the oil hole in the main bearing anywhere you want it. The rods must get full pressure, full flow when the piston is ~70 degrees ATDC. It's common engineering. Chrysler and ford fudged it for packaging reasons.

You can do anything you want, but if you want to make power a over 8k you have to fix the oil timing.

Look at how Chevy did it. That's how it should be. Chrysler got it wrong.

I work at a Chevy engine plant for a living. The new Chevy small block oiling system has been extensively revised from the original design. Heck they do not even drive the oil pump the same way any more. The two oil galleys are now in a closed loop at both ends of the block. There are eyebrow cuts in the main block saddles now with two bearing feed holes to fix the volume and timing issues.
The original Chevy had its room for improvement too.

 

[brian6pac]

On the BB I block the left lifter galley completely off (only with solid lifters), and I slot the holes for the rockers as it's only # 4 cam but only about a 1/4 - 3/8 " not all the way around the rockers don't need that much oil. If you look at a Hemi cam vs a BB cam the Hemi has a small groove around the #4 journal very small and It feeds 4 rocker shafts.

 

[yellow rose]

I work at a Chevy engine plant for a living. The new Chevy small block oiling system has been extensively revised from the original design. Heck they do not even drive the oil pump the same way any more. The two oil galleys are now in a closed loop at both ends of the block. There are eyebrow cuts in the main block saddles now with two bearing feed holes to fix the volume and timing issues.
The original Chevy had its room for improvement too.

Don't get off the reservation. You can drive the pump any way you want, you can move the galleries anywhere you want, as long as the oil feed hole in the block lines up with the rod feed hole in the crank lines up at about 70 degrees past TDC.

The engineering is settled. If you don't want to turn RPM and drive tractor engines it doesn't matter.

If you lost the number 2&4 mains it want because the cam had a groove in it. You can't increase the leak by a groove. The leak control is at the rockers.

 

[Duane]

Don't get off the reservation. You can drive the pump any way you want, you can move the galleries anywhere you want, as long as the oil feed hole in the block lines up with the rod feed hole in the crank lines up at about 70 degrees past TDC.

The engineering is settled. If you don't want to turn RPM and drive tractor engines it doesn't matter.

If you lost the number 2&4 mains it want because the cam had a groove in it. You can't increase the leak by a groove. The leak control is at the rockers.

The oil pumps on the New Chevy and the New Hemi are driven off the crankshaft to eliminate the failure prone intermediate shafts that occasionally break at high volumes and pressures.
The galleys were joined together to eliminate the velocity issues and to even out the pressures in the system. Now the oil can better make the turns to the mains.
The engineering you speak of is never settled. Engines are always being refined.
Yes my engine lost the 2&4 mains because of the grooved cam. To my knowledge none of the major cam manufacturers groove those cam journals because the failures have been documented.
All aftermarket race blocks now use priority main oiling.
Nothing is oiled from the main bearings except the cam bearings and
The rods and certainly no flooding of the lifter bores.
You are offering old outdated information by advising people to cross drill there crankshaft. Absolutely no crank manufacturers offer this any more. Allmost all race crankshafts now use straight shot oiling holes right to the rod journals.
I offer the following pages from recent performance publications.
Cross drilling is now viewed as detrimental to rod oiling of which you claim to improve because centrifugal force inside the main journal throws all the oil to the main bearing and the oil does not make the turn inside the crankshaft to the rod journal passage.
The best advise you could have given the OP was to read very thoroughly Guitar Jones oiling mods thread. There is enough in there for everyone New and experienced to learn something.

 

[Duane]

It was always my understanding that after blocking the oil at the #1 main oil passage on the right oil gallery the oil would have no place to go except to the #2,3,4 mains and then the cross over tube would feed the left oil gallery and the #1 main from opposite direction. Which kept a constant flow of oil to the causal #4 main and #5 and 6 rods bearings. I have done this mode to all of my small blocks except one, my first one a 340 that starved #4 main and spun 5 and 6 rod bearings at 7500 rpm's. Since I have used this mode none of my engines have ever showed an oil starvation problem, lucky maybe but at this stage of my life I will stay with what works for me.

Right on the money. And your mention of the plug blocking number one main never gets mentioned enough.

 

[yellow rose]

The oil pumps on the New Chevy and the New Hemi are driven off the crankshaft to eliminate the failure prone intermediate shafts that occasionally break at high volumes and pressures.
The galleys were joined together to eliminate the velocity issues and to even out the pressures in the system. Now the oil can better make the turns to the mains.
The engineering you speak of is never settled. Engines are always being refined.
Yes my engine lost the 2&4 mains because of the grooved cam. To my knowledge none of the major cam manufacturers groove those cam journals because the failures have been documented.
All aftermarket race blocks now use priority main oiling.
Nothing is oiled from the main bearings except the cam bearings and
The rods and certainly no flooding of the lifter bores.
You are offering old outdated information by advising people to cross drill there crankshaft. Absolutely no crank manufacturers offer this any more. Allmost all race crankshafts now use straight shot oiling holes right to the rod journals.
I offer the following pages from recent performance publications.
Cross drilling is now viewed as detrimental to rod oiling of which you claim to improve because centrifugal force inside the main journal throws all the oil to the main bearing and the oil does not make the turn inside the crankshaft to the rod journal passage.
The best advise you could have given the OP was to read very thoroughly Guitar Jones oiling mods thread. There is enough in there for everyone New and experienced to learn something.

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Was the OP talking about the new hemi or LS? Neither was I.

I've been doing this since 1980 and NEVER EVER broke a distributor drive. And I've run up to 120 pounds of oil pressure.
The reason they moved the pump was because it was CHEAPER.

As for oil timing to the rods...it's settled engineering. Done and DONE. Unless you want to show me an engine other then a mopar with the oil timing off and turning 8000 plus then you can say something.

So, you don't know ****. The system I used worked. It will still work. If you can't figure out why you have to cross drill the crank that's on you.

Now go away with your bullshit. Just another low RPM fence leaner.