lifter galley crossover tube

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yellow rose said:
Was the OP talking about the new hemi or LS? Neither was I.

I've been doing this since 1980 and NEVER EVER broke a distributor drive. And I've run up to 120 pounds of oil pressure.
The reason they moved the pump was because it was CHEAPER.

As for oil timing to the rods...it's settled engineering. Done and DONE. Unless you want to show me an engine other then a mopar with the oil timing off and turning 8000 plus then you can say something.

So, you don't know ****. The system I used worked. It will still work. If you can't figure out why you have to cross drill the crank that's on you.

Now go away with your bullshit. Just another low RPM fence leaner.
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I am done with this post. I know your type.Have a nice day.
 
Duane said:
I am done with this post. I know your type.Have a nice day.
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Right. I'm the guy who knows what he's talking about. I'll go make a video and post it just to show how wrong you are.

How many 2 HP/CID 8000 RPM Chrysler's have you built? That's what I thought. Too many guys are still running blocks with the oil timing off. Even the early R blocks have the oil timing wrong.
 
Yellow Rose, OK, if I plumb oil to the bottom (6 o'clock) of the main caps will that then line up the passages at 70 ATDC OR do I need to in addition redrill the crank also? I did not have time to go check a crank today to try & figure it out (if I could). thank you for your time.
 
B3RE said:
I really don't get the logic of the oil moving so fast that it can't make the turn to the mains. If the oil was moving that fast, there would be no oil pressure. Pressure is a resistance to directional flow or movement. So, in a pressure differential, pressure will always move from high areas to low areas. If the mains are the low area, that's where the oil is going, regardless of the turn into the passage.
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I hope Duane didn't bow out like he said he was going to. I would like to know what part of this post he disagrees with. It's solid engineering principles, but I'm always willing to learn something new.
 
B3RE said:
I hope Duane didn't bow out like he said he was going to. I would like to know what part of this post he disagrees with. It's solid engineering principles, but I'm always willing to learn something new.
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B3RE said:
I hope Duane didn't bow out like he said he was going to. I would like to know what part of this post he disagrees with. It's solid engineering principles, but I'm always willing to learn something new.
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Hi B3 I only partly disagree with your post. But let me say that I am always hesitant to have a discussion with someone who does not have an open mind and and resorts to insults and name calling because you do not agree with them.
You are correct, you cannot learn anything new if you think that you know everything. You seem to have an open mind so I will talk with you and just to be clear I am no expert. I learned many new oiling mods that are in my newest engine build from a very lengthy discussion that was in Guitar jones thread and another thread by Sanborn on another forum. I also read as many articles as I can get my hands on about oiling or anything engine related because I like to learn. I also like to share. I do not come on here to be insulted or put down. I also build engines for a living for Chevrolet. Not build as in assemble. I am in the machining and tooling end of it. I started to talk about other brands because YR talked earlier about Chevys and Fords. I felt I was entitled to do the same.
The Part of your post and a couple others that were made earlier that I do not agree with,
Is that your are comparing a hydraulic system that is closed like say the brake system on your car. The fluid only moves the parts, but the fluid never leaves the system so the pressure has to go where it can
And then eventually evens out pressure wise. It is leakage that cools and lubricates our main and rod bearings along with acceptable pressure.
The system in an engine leaks everywhere and the leakage is not uniform. It is controlled leakage and this leakage is what causes oil movement,as you said to maintain a pressure you have to increase the volume. That is precisely the problem that shows up in the Mopar LA engine "only" if you put in the melling high volume and high pressure pump. That pump can make up that extra volume and keep the pressure as well and that is where the problem starts.
But it creates a lot of velocity because of the design of the oiling system in the la engine. That oil galley is on a runway like at an airport. From the time the oil leaves the pump and gets up to the galley it is moving because it has 8 lifters that leak on the drivers side that is fed from #1 main that is used to feed them. When the oil gets into the main galley at high speed, the first passage on its path is #4 main and also to a lesser degree #3 as well. It is not that there is no oil going to number four but not enough volume and it is also being asked to feed a whole bank of rockers. So there is leakage there as well that is not going to the crank. The areas that we want the most leakage is the main bearing because they are highly loaded and because they also oil the rods.
There is some partial validity to what YR was saying about the timing. The numbers he used are not what is accepted but the issue is correct. But the cross drilling is now universally understood to be a mistake. The timing issue at least with aftermarket race cranks is now addressed with the straight shot oil drilled hole. The location of those hole has been refined to bring the timing into an approximate
Range but it is not just the oil pressure from the pump that gets the oil to the rods. It has been realized now that when you rev the motor centrifugal force is assisting the application of the oil to the rods. This same force has now been recognized as detrimental if you cross drill the crank because you have given the oil another place to leak that is not at the rod bearing passage and increasing the oil pressure will not fix it. There was a time when that was an accepted method before they understood what was happening to try to address oiling to the rods. It is now understood that centrifugal force exists in the main bearing at any crank position to throw oil to the rods. But you have to keep the main journals full. The LA engine is not good at that. That's what needs to be fixed.
Feel free to disagree and debate this as long as we can keep things civilized.
 
The Larry atherton of A&W performance article in the "Petersens complete book of engines #9" said that he had seen many rod issues on either side of the #4 main so what he did to try to get to the bottom of it was shoot water in from a garden hole in the block for alot of experimentation & he came up with the conclusion (right or wrong) that the water (& therefore the oil) was rushing by the turn to the #4 main too fast to make it & that the bypass over to the other side took care of it (by reducing the velocity). it had some other good seperate from oiling info & was well worth the few bucks I paid for it "used" off of eBay.
 
Duane said:
Hi B3 I only partly disagree with your post. But let me say that I am always hesitant to have a discussion with someone who does not have an open mind and and resorts to insults and name calling because you do not agree with them.
You are correct, you cannot learn anything new if you think that you know everything. You seem to have an open mind so I will talk with you and just to be clear I am no expert. I learned many new oiling mods that are in my newest engine build from a very lengthy discussion that was in Guitar jones thread and another thread by Sanborn on another forum. I also read as many articles as I can get my hands on about oiling or anything engine related because I like to learn. I also like to share. I do not come on here to be insulted or put down. I also build engines for a living for Chevrolet. Not build as in assemble. I am in the machining and tooling end of it. I started to talk about other brands because YR talked earlier about Fords. I felt I was entitled to do the same.
The Part of your post and a couple others that were made earlier that I do not agree with,
Is that your are comparing a hydraulic system that is closed like say the brake system on your car. The fluid only moves the parts, but the fluid never leaves the system so the pressure has to go where it can
And then eventually evens out pressure wise. It is leakage that cools and lubricates our main and rod bearings along with acceptable pressure.
The system in an engine leaks everywhere and the leakage is not uniform. It is controlled leakage and this leakage is what causes oil movement,as you said to maintain a pressure you have to increase the volume. That is precisely the problem that shows up in the Mopar LA engine "only" if you put in the melling high volume and high pressure pump. That pump can make up that extra volume and keep the pressure as well and that is where the problem starts.
But it creates a lot of velocity because of the design of the oiling system in the la engine. That oil galley is on a runway like at an airport. From the time the oil leaves the pump and gets up to the galley it is moving because it has 8 lifters that leak on the drivers side that is fed from #1 main that is used to feed them. When the oil gets into the main galley at high speed, the first passage on its path is #4 main and also to a lesser degree #3 as well. It is not that there is no oil going to number four but not enough volume and it is also being asked to feed a whole bank of rockers. So there is leakage there as well that is not going to the crank. The areas that we want the most leakage is the main bearing because they are highly loaded and because they also oil the rods.
There is some partial validity to what YR was saying about the timing. The numbers he used are not what is accepted but the issue is correct. But the cross drilling is now universally understood to be a mistake. The timing issue at least with aftermarket race cranks is now addressed with the straight shot oil drilled hole. The location of those hole has been refined to bring the timing into an approximate
Range but it is not just the oil pressure from the pump that gets the oil to the rods. It has been realized now that when you rev the motor centrifugal force is assisting the application of the oil to the rods. This same force has now been recognized as detrimental if you cross drill the crank because you have given the oil another place to leak that is not at the rod bearing passage and increasing the oil pressure will not fix it. There was a time when that was an accepted method before they understood what was happening to try to address oiling to the rods. It is now understood that centrifugal force exists in the main bearing at any crank position to throw oil to the rods. But you have to keep the main journals full. The LA engine is not good at that. That's what needs to be fixed.
Feel free to disagree and debate this as long as we can keep things civilized.
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I may have been misunderstood when I was comparing open and closed systems, but that wasn't the post you disagreed with. Yes, the oiling system is a controlled bleed system, and when the bearing clearances are opened up for high horsepower and rpm, the volume of oil required increases as well. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, and it's obvious you have a good grasp on what's happening in the oiling system. I have one area of contention though. When the volume of oil is increased, to compensate for the wider oil clearances, the pressure differential also becomes greater, so oil will flow to lower pressure areas. I do not believe that the oil will flow that fast across the main galley, that it cannot turn into a low pressure passage to feed the main bearings. If it did flow that fast, there would be no restriction, and no pressure. However, I do believe that ALL the bearings require an adequate amount of oil, and that is why I do the crossover mod differently than the publications instruct. It also would slow the oil flow, if it indeed was an issue. You alluded to some engineering that follows my line of thinking in this area, so I believe we are pretty much on the same page. Any differences would be minor.

As far as cross drilling is concerned, I don't do it, and have seen the same kind of data on centrifugal effects when cross drilling is used. It seems it would have the same effect as a full groove bearing, but with the centrifugal drawbacks. I could be wrong, though.
 
Rapid Robert said:
The Larry atherton of A&W performance article in the "Petersens complete book of engines #9" said that he had seen many rod issues on either side of the #4 main so what he did to try to get to the bottom of it was shoot water in from a garden hole in the block for alot of experimentation & he came up with the conclusion (right or wrong) that the water (& therefore the oil) was rushing by the turn to the #4 main too fast to make it & that the bypass over to the other side took care of it (by reducing the velocity). it had some other good seperate from oiling info & was well worth the few bucks I paid for it "used" off of eBay.
Click to expand...
Did he have the motor entirely assembled with every restriction in the oiling system in place, just like a running engine? If not, then the results would not be valid in a running engine.
 
Very good point. I'm gonna read thru it again but iirc he had the bare block on a stand & was just playing with the garden hose!
 
B3RE said:
I really don't get the logic of the oil moving so fast that it can't make the turn to the mains. If the oil was moving that fast, there would be no oil pressure. Pressure is a resistance to directional flow or movement. So, in a pressure differential, pressure will always move from high areas to low areas. If the mains are the low area, that's where the oil is going, regardless of the turn into the passage.
Click to expand...

Yes I believe this is the post you are referring to B3.
I do not agree that the oil will always move to the low pressure area
And I do not agree that if the oil would move so fast that it cannot make the turn or there would be no oil pressure.
I posted earlier that my number 2&4 main bearings had lost bearing crush after 40 runs.
This engine had the Mopar tube kit in the block full grooved mains,
High volume/high pressure pump like my previous build before, with one exception. I put in an old comp cams cam that had full oiling grooves on journals, 2&4. Why did those two main bearing fail if it was the low pressure area? Engine had 75 pounds oil pressure easily.
I am reminded of an electrical question I once asked.
Why do transformers exist that have redo illusory high voltage. Eg. 600 volts. 2000 volts etc and the answer I was given is that voltage is the pressure. By the time we send the voltage through the wires to the next state or country. We hope to still have 240 volts when it gets to its destination or something to that effect.
We are taking our oil pressure readings at an area that is vary close to the output of the pump. That does not mean the pressure (remember the leakage) is the same at every point in the block.
What are the odds that those two cam journals just happen to coincide with the same two main bearings. Why did those bearings get hot. Why did the required volume of oil not get there.
Why can you not buy a new cam for an La engine that still has those grooves.
 
Duane said:
Yes I believe this is the post you are referring to B3.
I do not agree that the oil will always move to the low pressure area
And I do not agree that if the oil would move so fast that it cannot make the turn or there would be no oil pressure.
I posted earlier that my number 2&4 main bearings had lost bearing crush after 40 runs.
This engine had the Mopar tube kit in the block full grooved mains,
High volume/high pressure pump like my previous build before, with one exception. I put in an old comp cams cam that had full oiling grooves on journals, 2&4. Why did those two main bearing fail if it was the low pressure area? Engine had 75 pounds oil pressure easily.
I am reminded of an electrical question I once asked.
Why do transformers exist that have redo illusory high voltage. Eg. 600 volts. 2000 volts etc and the answer I was given is that voltage is the pressure. By the time we send the voltage through the wires to the next state or country. We hope to still have 240 volts when it gets to its destination or something to that effect.
We are taking our oil pressure readings at an area that is vary close to the output of the pump. That does not mean the pressure (remember the leakage) is the same at every point in the block.
What are the odds that those two cam journals just happen to coincide with the same two main bearings. Why did those bearings get hot. Why did the required volume of oil not get there.
Why can you not buy a new cam for an La engine that still has those grooves.
Click to expand...

Just to add to my previous posts. In the book how to build big inch stroker small blocks by Jim sziligy? He introduces a mod I had never seen to oil the rockers directly from the main oil galley by drilling and tapping for a jumper tube. This is to convert to priority main oiling.
The #2&4 cam bearings are modified to completely cut off supplying oil to the rockers leaving all the oil to go to the main bearing with adequate volume. This is to prevent precisely the failure I just had.
 
Rapid Robert said:
The Larry atherton of A&W performance article in the "Petersens complete book of engines #9" said that he had seen many rod issues on either side of the #4 main so what he did to try to get to the bottom of it was shoot water in from a garden hole in the block for alot of experimentation & he came up with the conclusion (right or wrong) that the water (& therefore the oil) was rushing by the turn to the #4 main too fast to make it & that the bypass over to the other side took care of it (by reducing the velocity). it had some other good seperate from oiling info & was well worth the few bucks I paid for it "used" off of eBay.
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Rapid Robert that is a great post. Any chance you could post those articles to the forum
 
Rapid Robert said:
#1 you sure know how to make a guy feel good! (2) I ain't sure I have the camera/computer skills to accomplish that.
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Well could you more thoroughly describe which of the Peterson series you found this in. I would like to buy that issue. Is it book number 2
 
Duane said:
Yes I believe this is the post you are referring to B3.
I do not agree that the oil will always move to the low pressure area
And I do not agree that if the oil would move so fast that it cannot make the turn or there would be no oil pressure.
I posted earlier that my number 2&4 main bearings had lost bearing crush after 40 runs.
This engine had the Mopar tube kit in the block full grooved mains,
High volume/high pressure pump like my previous build before, with one exception. I had 75 pounds oil pressure easily.
I am reminded of an electrical question I once asked.
Why do transformers exist that have redo illusory high voltage. Eg. 600 volts. 2000 volts etc and the answer I was given is that voltage is the pressure. By the time we send the voltage through the wires to the next state or country. We hope to still have 240 volts when it gets to its destination or something to that effect.
We are taking our oil pressure readings at an area that is vary close to the output of the pump. That does not mean the pressure (remember the leakage) is the same at every point in the block.
What are the odds that those two cam journals just happen to coincide with the same two main bearings. Why did those bearings get hot. Why did the required volume of oil not get there.
Why can you not buy a new cam for an La engine that still has those grooves.
Click to expand...
Let me get this straight. You pulled more oil away from the mains, to feed the heads, with a fully grooved 2 and 4 cam journal, and then the oil was flowing so fast, that it wouldn't turn into 2 and 4 oil galleys. Think about the logic of that. If the oil will no longer get there, what's the point of grooving the cam journals for increased oiling to the heads. What you did was create an additional low pressure area beyond the mains, and broke down the ability of the oil to maintain a hydrodynamic wedge. You can't blame oil velocity for that one.

The oiling mod for the rocker feeds does not turn a block into a priority main. Its been done a long time, and only serves to eliminate feeding the heads with main bearing oil. That main galley still has to feed at least eight lifter bores.
 
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Duane said:
Well could you more thoroughly describe which of the Peterson series you found this in. I would like to buy that issue. Is it book number 2
Click to expand...
I did earlier. (Petersens complete book of engines #9). The A&W article is about the only Mopar article in that book. what I could do for you is zerox the 7 pages & send em to you so you could check it out (& post em for everyone if possible).

SAM_0791.JPG
 
Duane said:
Yes I believe this is the post you are referring to B3.
I do not agree that the oil will always move to the low pressure area
And I do not agree that if the oil would move so fast that it cannot make the turn or there would be no oil pressure.
I posted earlier that my number 2&4 main bearings had lost bearing crush after 40 runs.
This engine had the Mopar tube kit in the block full grooved mains,
High volume/high pressure pump like my previous build before, with one exception. I put in an old comp cams cam that had full oiling grooves on journals, 2&4. Why did those two main bearing fail if it was the low pressure area? Engine had 75 pounds oil pressure easily.
I am reminded of an electrical question I once asked.
Why do transformers exist that have redo illusory high voltage. Eg. 600 volts. 2000 volts etc and the answer I was given is that voltage is the pressure. By the time we send the voltage through the wires to the next state or country. We hope to still have 240 volts when it gets to its destination or something to that effect.
We are taking our oil pressure readings at an area that is vary close to the output of the pump. That does not mean the pressure (remember the leakage) is the same at every point in the block.
What are the odds that those two cam journals just happen to coincide with the same two main bearings. Why did those bearings get hot. Why did the required volume of oil not get there.
Why can you not buy a new cam for an La engine that still has those grooves.
Click to expand...

Oil (or any fluid or gas) will always move and flow to a lower pressure area. This is the basis of aircraft lift and how an internal combustion engine intake cycle draws in air. Atmospheric pressure is flowing into the lower pressure cyclinders (intake vacuum). Oil will flow to both the crank and cam/head but the majority is flowing to the head since it has more leakage. If the head had a true open oil bleed, say you lost a rocker shaft plug, then the pressure drop at #4 would be even greater, lowering the available pressure going to #4.

The oil flowing in the galley at #4 also feeds the one head. This induces a local pressure drop at the intersection of the#4 crank feed and the cam and head. Mopar designed the cam and head to only be fed part-time. Increasing the flow to full-time with a grooved cam journal or rockers that bleed more oil than stock will further reduce the pressure seen at #4 crank. This could explain your 2 and 4 crank failure, possibly from starvation. Or at least, play a part if oil starvation was the root cause of failure.

High volume pumps are great and they can really work on an engine that has a lot of oil bleeds from large bearing clearances, an oil cooler, turbo, some aftermarket rockers, etc. They only work if you have some of those mods/parts. Otherwise they're just bypassing the excess you're not using to maintain safe pressures. They offer the same pressures as a normal pump but can keep up with extra bleeds whereas a normal pump couldn't.
 
For anyone who missed my previous post, due to my phone being garbage. Had to edit to include my reply.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
Oil (or any fluid or gas) will always move and flow to a lower pressure area. This is the basis of aircraft lift and how an internal combustion engine intake cycle draws in air. Atmospheric pressure is flowing into the lower pressure cyclinders (intake vacuum). Oil will flow to both the crank and cam/head but the majority is flowing to the head since it has more leakage. If the head had a true open oil bleed, say you lost a rocker shaft plug, then the pressure drop at #4 would be even greater, lowering the available pressure going to #4.

The oil flowing in the galley at #4 also feeds the one head. This induces a local pressure drop at the intersection of the#4 crank feed and the cam and head. Mopar designed the cam and head to only be fed part-time. Increasing the flow to full-time with a grooved cam journal or rockers that bleed more oil than stock will further reduce the pressure seen at #4 crank. This could explain your 2 and 4 crank failure, possibly from starvation. Or at least, play a part if oil starvation was the root cause of failure.

High volume pumps are great and they can really work on an engine that has a lot of oil bleeds from large bearing clearances, an oil cooler, turbo, some aftermarket rockers, etc. They only work if you have some of those mods/parts. Otherwise they're just bypassing the excess you're not using to maintain safe pressures. They offer the same pressures as a normal pump but can keep up with extra bleeds whereas a normal pump couldn't.
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Exactly, with one correction. High volume pumps usually have a higher bypass spring pressure, which increases oil pressure.
 
Rapid Robert said:
I did earlier. (Petersens complete book of engines #9). The A&W article is about the only Mopar article in that book. what I could do for you is zerox the 7 pages & send em to you so you could check it out (& post em for everyone if possible).

View attachment 1715084226
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Yes, I'd be interested in seeing how close to a running engine he performed this test.
 
OK verbatim: "In an effort to find out why this main, which is not far from the oil pump & should logically recieve plenty of oil, was being slighted, Larry spent considerable time forcing high water pressure through the oil passages of a block to see how it was being distributed. What he found was amazing: the oil was actually going through the main oil gallery on the right side "too fast" (in italics). Since the mains are fed from the right gallery through passages that meet the main gallery at right angles, the pressurized oil couldn't make the sharp bend very easily". He went on to say that there is no problem if the RPM is 7500 RPM or less.
 
Rapid Robert said:
OK verbatim: "In an effort to find out why this main, which is not far from the oil pump & should logically recieve plenty of oil, was being slighted, Larry spent considerable time forcing high water pressure through the oil passages of a block to see how it was being distributed. What he found was amazing: the oil was actually going through the main oil gallery on the right side "too fast" (in italics). Since the mains are fed from the right gallery through passages that meet the main gallery at right angles, the pressurized oil couldn't make the sharp bend very easily". He went on to say that there is no problem if the RPM is 7500 RPM or less.
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Thanks Robert, but it only mentions the block. I'd like to know if it had a crank, rods, and bearings, camshaft, lifters in the bores, cylinder heads with rocker gear, and all galley plugs installed. Otherwise, the test doesn't yield valid results. The amount of oil bled off would have to be measured at each bearing, and the oil bleed at the heads would have to be accounted for on 2 and 4, and it still wouldn't account for the rotationally induced changes and fluctuations. It's a lot more scientific than watching water shoot through an open passage.
 
Also, Fords and some GM engines oil the same way to the main bearings. They don't seem to have a problem with the oil moving to fast. They just don't oil the heads with main bearing oil.

One other thing that was brought up is straight shot oiling holes. I have yet to see a post 1958 Chrysler V-8 crankshaft that didn't have straight shot oiling from the factory. Unless, I missed something. This is one of the reasons I don't care for a certain popular aftermarket Mopar crank. They actually went backwards and use an intersecting oil hole.
 
That would be fantastic. I knew you could do it lol
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Unlike the women in my life I'm just too easy! yeah there was no mention of anything else other than the quoted text as far as how the meat & potatoes of his diagnosis went. I definitely got the feeling after reading you guys' posts/take regarding this info & then going back over what he wrote with that in mind that it was strickly just the bare block.
 
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