Looking for master cylinder suggestions on somewhat unique setup

-
The more I look at my whole setup the more I debate updating my proportioning valve as well just to clean things up. I have no idea what it is actually off of and can't really seem to find a match for it. Need to see if I can find some part numbers on it I guess. The way it actually routes lines and stuff though isn't exactly ideal, so I wouldn't mind something cleaner. The car seems to stop well enough for what it is, so can't really complain there. As best I can tell from casting numbers the front brakes are something like 71 Challenger parts. Rears are something like a 10" drum, though the shoes are very slightly "different" in that they have square slots where the parking brake lever attaches. Tried buying shoes for something like a late 60s B body in the past when I replaced them and they had round cutouts there instead, so couldn't install the lever. Luckily the guy at the counter was actually a Mopar guy and we figured something out, but I should have written down what we actually found as I can't recall anymore.
 
I don't think the piston has a locking groove for the pushrod rubber bushing (manual-brakes), but that bushing isn't coming out of the late-1990's MC from a Breeze I used in my 1964 Valiant. I slid in the OE brake rod for test-fit then tried to remove it to add a rubber dust bellows. I had to beat the rod out, tearing up the rubber bushing (had to order another). With the 2-4 adapter plate, the brake pedal wound up in the same position as with the OE single-pot MC (search for post w/ photos). But, who am I to argue with Rick Ehrenberg (or Slant-Six Dan) and an internal groove only helps.

Dr Diff also sells that kit of 1980's Dodge truck MC w/ adapter plate and even offers w/ a smaller bore for an easier pedal for manual brakes. Many sell the same/similar adjustable proportioning valve, some w/ brand logos, though Ehrenberg's price is good.
 
Yeah, I'm definitely not discounting the idea of the kits. They are nice combos for sure and have proven to work well for people. I'm just not sure i can make the left exit porting work for me without redoing a lot of other stuff. I figure I don't mind redoing more of my brake system and leaving my clutch alone as the brakes are kind of kludged together already with unknown parts, so refreshing the whole master cylinder and valve setup would at least give me a baseline to deal with, and I figure if I'm going that far I might as well get what works best for me.

I'm leaning the most toward the Wilwood bottom exit setup and a custom adapter plate to be able to mount it right now. That gives me pretty ideal porting that would be out of the way of just about anything I have up there and also points the lines where they end up going stock anyway (down to the frame rail where the proportioning/splitter valve was originally mounted). My headers are pretty tight to the frame where the original valve went though, but I think if I just put a tee there for the front brakes and mount a new adjustable proportioning valve for the rears up higher inline that it would be a pretty clean setup and have good clearance to stuff. The Wilwood master comes with a threaded pushrod as well, so all I should have to come up with is a rod end that will mount to the pedal, which I'm hoping could be fairly straightforward. I just wish I understood why they went with a different bolt pattern on the master as pretty much everything else they sell is horizontal.
 
Re OEM master cylinders, non-ABS can have ports for F & R on both sides, so you could plug the left side ports. As example, a 1999 Breeze/Sebring/Cirrus More Information for CARDONE 132731 ($35). But, bottom ports may fit your app better.

Until ~2000, U.S. cars mostly still used inverted-flare tube fittings. You can form later bubble-flares on 1/8" tubing using a dbl-flare tool (I have, see youtubes), but why fool with that? I used a Breeze ABS MC since only 2 ports (left side, so not for you). Why Breeze? I had grabbed an Intrepid booster w/ MC at the junkyard for my 65 Dart for its bolt pattern (slight rat-tail filing matched Dart brackets) but its slanted reservoir didn't work so swapped to a Breeze MC. Perhaps other MC's would work. As I stated, my 64 Valiant brake rod fit perfectly in the Breeze MC piston, though likely all 1990's MC's were for power brakes.

BTW, for those who want power brakes and a vacuum booster won't fit (headers), an alternative to hydro-boost (requires power steering) is the latest electric-boost MC's. I saw a youtube of a hobbyist displaying one from a Tesla. One son recently had a rental Honda CR-V so I peered under the hood. It appeared to also have an electric-boost brake MC, so likely many others do. Might need to wait a few years for more to crash so cheap at junkyards. For many years now, steering racks have had motorized assist built-in. I assume most/all are 12 VDC. Haven't seen a hobbyist use one, though might be easy if just 2 power wires to connect (no funky control box).
 
Last edited:
I've always balked at paying ridiculous prices for a name.
M/C is just a pump, no magic, a W/Cyl/servo just a way to change hydraulic to mechanical.
Give your head a shake .
 
Dana67Dart said:
Aluminum bendix style master



1962-74 Mopar Bendix Style ALUMINUM Master Cylinder


I recall there being a passanger side ported 4 bolt mc on B, C, E, F body cars (don't recall which)


as for interior seepage.

it should not happen if you have good seals and sealing surfaces.

my dart sat for 4 years and seeped fluid onto the front floor, it is still damp but with monthly use it doesn't seep enough to worry about right now.
Click to expand...
Dana, never seen one in aluminum. Does it work with Manuel Disc brakes?
 
TF360 said:
Dana, never seen one in aluminum. Does it work with Manuel Disc brakes?
Click to expand...
Yep.

It is 0.031" larger diameter than the 1 inch stock

This will result in a slightly harder pedal

But I bet that most reman MCs have been reamed out almost that far anyway.
 
Just checked the Service Manuel and it says 1 1/32 for Manuel Disc set up on A-bodies
 
BillGrissom said:
Re OEM master cylinders, non-ABS can have ports for F & R on both sides, so you could plug the left side ports. As example, a 1999 Breeze/Sebring/Cirrus More Information for CARDONE 132731 ($35). But, bottom ports may fit your app better.

Until ~2000, U.S. cars mostly still used inverted-flare tube fittings. You can form later bubble-flares on 1/8" tubing using a dbl-flare tool (I have, see youtubes), but why fool with that? I used a Breeze ABS MC since only 2 ports (left side, so not for you). Why Breeze? I had grabbed an Intrepid booster w/ MC at the junkyard for my 65 Dart for its bolt pattern (slight rat-tail filing matched Dart brackets) but its slanted reservoir didn't work so swapped to a Breeze MC. Perhaps other MC's would work. As I stated, my 64 Valiant brake rod fit perfectly in the Breeze MC piston, though likely all 1990's MC's were for power brakes.

BTW, for those who want power brakes and a vacuum booster won't fit (headers), an alternative to hydro-boost (requires power steering) is the latest electric-boost MC's. I saw a youtube of a hobbyist displaying one from a Tesla. One son recently had a rental Honda CR-V so I peered under the hood. It appeared to also have an electric-boost brake MC, so likely many others do. Might need to wait a few years for more to crash so cheap at junkyards. For many years now, steering racks have had motorized assist built-in. I assume most/all are 12 VDC. Haven't seen a hobbyist use one, though might be easy if just 2 power wires to connect (no funky control box).
Click to expand...
I think I saw the same video. A bit off topic, but electric power assist is pretty easy to add nowadays as well, just in the column instead of the rack. You can put an inline assist on the steering column and with a 12v feed you get power steering with no hydraulics or having to figure out how to mount a rack in an old car. You have to get the right units as some of them work in failsafe mode (without the controller they normally use) better than others. Typically they are used in conjunction with features like speed sensitive assist or maybe different modes like tour and sport, but most of them will default to full assist all the time if they don't have a computer signal. I debated it with my car when I watched some videos, but haven't really looked that far into it. I think you can get a junkyard Prius unit for around $100, so very tempting.

inertia said:
I've always balked at paying ridiculous prices for a name.
M/C is just a pump, no magic, a W/Cyl/servo just a way to change hydraulic to mechanical.
Give your head a shake .
Click to expand...

I agree with this as well, they are all pretty much dirt simple until you get into the very modern ones that have the ABS built in (my wife's 2021 4Runner is wild looking comparatively speaking). It's just hard to find a catalog to look through with pictures of all the different styles unless it's from one company. I don't really care for the idea of spending $200 for a master cylinder when I can get one for $65, but I haven't really had much luck finding anything else that has ports on the bottom with just Google searches. I'm sure there is probably something else out there, but without digging through tons of catalogs for all different brands I'm at a bit of a loss.
 
This may help,
I'm used to fabbing as nec.
There are others, best I can do right now .
I'll look more later, cheers .
Raybestos, $81.00

1985 TOYOTA CRESSIDA 2.8L L6 Master Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto

Brake & Wheel Hub Parts and More for Your 1985 TOYOTA CRESSIDA at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
www.rockauto.com
 
Last edited:
inertia said:
This may help,
I'm used to fabbing as nec.
There are others, best I can do right now .
I'll look more later, cheers .
Raybestos, $81.00

[/URL]
Click to expand...
Nice find. Top ports (some) and reservoir can be relocated. Inverted flare fittings w/ 10mm x 1 threads, but likely can source matching tube nuts for standard 1/8" tubing. Looks like available in 7/8" or 15/16"D bores, good for manual brakes (see Centric) 4-bolt mount but doesn't list hole spacings. Great if matched old Mopar. Do you know?
 
BillGrissom said:
Nice find. Top ports (some) and reservoir can be relocated. Inverted flare fittings w/ 10mm x 1 threads, but likely can source matching tube nuts for standard 1/8" tubing. Looks like available in 7/8" or 15/16"D bores, good for manual brakes (see Centric) 4-bolt mount but doesn't list hole spacings. Great if matched old Mopar. Do you know?
Click to expand...

I just cut the flare off, slip a Metric on and reflare .
Bolt pattern is smaller, haven't tried it on a Mopar, I have made a adapter plate for a racecar app.
There is also a 2 bolt , which may be more easily adapted .
I'll try and find an alum, there is vast variety .
 
Very interesting. I'll have to see if I can find some more specs on those Toyota ones. The Neon/Breeze ones look pretty nice too. Looks like left/right ports as an option and certainly an appealing price. The right side exit might not be as bad if I relocate the splitter valve down low instead of where I have it today. Maybe I start there and work my way up instead of top down.
 
Found another Toyota one that looks interesting. Has a 4 bolt pattern as well and looks like maybe top and bottom ports. One picture I've found shows senders of some sort in the bottom and bushings in the top, might be able to swap the bushings to the bottom.

1978 TOYOTA LAND CRUISER 4.2L L6 Master Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto

Brake & Wheel Hub Parts and More for Your 1978 TOYOTA LAND CRUISER at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
www.rockauto.com

dscn0309-jpg.jpg


Edit: Did a little more searching and it appears the Toyota 4 bolt pattern is 75mm x 45mm compared to the Mopar pattern of 3.25" x 2" (which is ~82.5mm x 50.8mm). So it's not a big stretch to make one work assuming the numbers are correct, but it would take some milling/filing of holes. Looks like there is a decent amount of metal to work with as you'd only be going out ~1/8" horizontally and 1/16" vertically on each hole. Also seems the bottom ports for the sensors on that FJ master aren't the same size as the top, so not quite so straightforward to swap parts to make it bottom exit. I'm betting you might still be able to find an adapter out there though. Guessing it's just 1/8" NPT, so if a 1/8 NPT to 1/8 inverted flare exists that would be fairly straightforward.
 
Last edited:
Map63Vette said:
Found another Toyota one that looks interesting. Has a 4 bolt pattern as well and looks like maybe top and bottom ports. One picture I've found shows senders of some sort in the bottom and bushings in the top, might be able to swap the bushings to the bottom.

1978 TOYOTA LAND CRUISER 4.2L L6 Master Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto

Brake & Wheel Hub Parts and More for Your 1978 TOYOTA LAND CRUISER at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
www.rockauto.com

View attachment 1716080367

Edit: Did a little more searching and it appears the Toyota 4 bolt pattern is 75mm x 45mm compared to the Mopar pattern of 3.25" x 2" (which is ~82.5mm x 50.8mm). So it's not a big stretch to make one work assuming the numbers are correct, but it would take some milling/filing of holes. Looks like there is a decent amount of metal to work with as you'd only be going out ~1/8" horizontally and 1/16" vertically on each hole. Also seems the bottom ports for the sensors on that FJ master aren't the same size as the top, so not quite so straightforward to swap parts to make it bottom exit. I'm betting you might still be able to find an adapter out there though. Guessing it's just 1/8" NPT, so if a 1/8 NPT to 1/8 inverted flare exists that would be fairly straightforward.
Click to expand...

I have just pipe threaded those ports and use conventional inverted flare fitting.
Plugged others, or a bleeder .
Bore is other consideration.
I have used an alum one, but can't find it .
 
The early Viper master cylinders are also kind of tempting as they would match the 2 bolt adapter pattern, are right side exit, are super compact like the Neon/Breeze ones (maybe they are actually the same with just a different reservoir, guess I should check numbers), and are very affordable, but they have a tube on the back for the brake booster interface. Seems to be a common feature on a lot of modern master cylinders that are meant for power brakes. The slanted cap would look a little goofy as well, but the actual fill line is still level, so it would be fine I think.

355-54158_v11_1.jpg
 
Re the Viper MC, it would work for manual brakes if the early-A brake rod bottoms out in the MC piston in the right depth to put the brake pedal and the ideal position, and the bore of the piston fits the rubber bushing on the end of the brake rod. All was true for the Breeze MC I used in my 64 Valiant, with the 2-4 adapter plate (see photos in my post ~10 years ago). If the piston bore varies, you might find an O-ring to fit. No worries with the brake rod popping out of the MC with that protruding cylinder (its purpose?), so the rubber is more to avoid rattles.

The purpose of the large O-ring is to seal vacuum against the booster body. That is for thin pancake boosters which don't have an internal accordion vacuum seal on their output shaft, like classic U.S. ones do. My 1985 M-B booster (Girling) is like that, as are my Chrysler minivans (1995 & 2002). Downside is that if the MC piston leaks, the brake fluid gets into the booster, instead of draining out a hole like with old Mopar boosters. You could just remove that O-ring for drainage (even cut a drain slot). The 1990's Intrepid booster I used on my 1965 Dart is like old Mopar ones, having an output accordion seal.
 
Good to know! I'll try to find your thread and take a look. I was a little concerned the long tube sticking out might cause extra loading on the bore of the master as it would not pivot to account for the minor arc the rod actually travels in due to pedal geometry, but I guess if the stroke is short enough it may not matter. I could probably trim some of the length off as well if I needed to. Would mean I could go with an off the shelf adapter as well, which would be more convenient for sure.
 
So to double back to this and give an update, I ended up going with the early Viper master cylinder I linked above. I did have to modify the 4 bolt to 2 bolt adapter I bought to enlarge the center bore though. Needed to increase it about 1/4" overall diameter if I remember correctly. Also had to shorten my pushrod by something like 7/8-1". It seems to be a pretty nice fit so far, though I'm still working out some other kinks with the whole setup. I like my line routing much more this time around and ended up going with a simple tee for the front lines and an adjustable proportioning valve for the rears. Figured this gave me the most flexibility in both feel and routing. I think I still have a flare or two I might need to redo though. I rarely have any luck making them myself as lines always seem to slip in my tools, but I did buy a different style one that I will probably give a try the next time I work on it. Pedal isn't as solid as I had hoped it would be, but thinking some of this might still be down to tracking down any sealing issues as the various connections. Car stops fine though, no worse than before at least, so happy I didn't make backwards progress if nothing else. Found out that one of my rear axle seals had let go while I was in there, so nice to catch that before it caused any more problems.
 
Map63Vette said:
So to double back to this and give an update, I ended up going with the early Viper master cylinder I linked above. I did have to modify the 4 bolt to 2 bolt adapter I bought to enlarge the center bore though. Needed to increase it about 1/4" overall diameter if I remember correctly. Also had to shorten my pushrod by something like 7/8-1". It seems to be a pretty nice fit so far, though I'm still working out some other kinks with the whole setup. I like my line routing much more this time around and ended up going with a simple tee for the front lines and an adjustable proportioning valve for the rears. Figured this gave me the most flexibility in both feel and routing. I think I still have a flare or two I might need to redo though. I rarely have any luck making them myself as lines always seem to slip in my tools, but I did buy a different style one that I will probably give a try the next time I work on it. Pedal isn't as solid as I had hoped it would be, but thinking some of this might still be down to tracking down any sealing issues as the various connections. Car stops fine though, no worse than before at least, so happy I didn't make backwards progress if nothing else. Found out that one of my rear axle seals had let go while I was in there, so nice to catch that before it caused any more problems.
Click to expand...

Pictures? :)
 
Right hand drive master cylinder has ports on the other side

not cheap option but look to australia for mopar 2 bolt and 4 bolt master cylinders which take the mopar pipe nuts for front and rear and of course exits are on the "wrong" side

https://sunburybrakes.com.au/search?q=Valiant&options[prefix]=last

Search results for: 'master' | Hemi Performance

Search: 19 results found for "master cyl"

look up

valiant VH for a cast iron 4 bolt (only availble as a reconditioned unit)
Valaint VJ fo an aluminium 2 bolt at more reasonable price

both come as Bosster or none booster the manual- none boosted, one has the rubber bit to hold the rod in.

depends how much you want to spend and how Mopar the solution needs to be

anyhthing named valaint in Oz is an A body at least from the b pillar forward

later cars were a bit 60s b body in width at the back end

Dave
 
Last edited:
DionR said:
Pictures? :)
Click to expand...
Planning on it the next time I work on it, which will probably be Friday. Looks like I've still got a drip on at least one front brake line, so going to borrow the garage while the wife is at work so I can wrench in the shade with my little window A/C unit as well.
 
So here's what I ended up with so far. I like the routing a lot more on this setup since I don't have the weird angles of the E body proportioning valve I had before sending tubes everywhere. Managed to keep a cleaner setup that follows the fenders a little tighter. Need to get some clips or something to hold them down better so they don't rattle too much, but still need to find the factory line at the tee on the fender as I think I got a weak flare on it and it's just not sealing well. Will probably also make a little bracket to hold the rear proportioning valve at some point as well. It's light enough and I used steel lines, so not super worried about it hurting anything just running in line, but better to tie it to something if I can.

20230721_151128.JPG


20230721_151123.JPG


20230721_151116.JPG
 
I would be making a mounting bracket for the valve. Otherwise there is a bunch of mass on the end of long tube and vibration will cause metal fatigue
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top