Looking for more pep off the line

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Alecb

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Hey all,
I've got a 73 Duster with a 360 LA and 727 that I rebuilt myself, and I'm looking for suggestions to make more power down low. The engine is bored over 0.040, has KB 107 pistons, 9.6:1 compression ratio, stock crank and rods, Summit K6901 camshaft 218/228 0.441 lift, stock J heads, stock cast iron intake, Holley 600 cfm vacuum secondaries, TCI 141500 converter, 3.23 rear gears, timing set at 12-15 degrees BTC. My build is meant to be a street machine on a budget, it runs well but it feels a little lacking off the line. Any suggestions for making better power would be much appreciated.
 
You make no mention of ignition. What are you running? What's the timing curve? Also, was the camshaft degreed? That combo kinda screams off idle grunt. It should be a tire melter.
 
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I agree on 3:91 if you do not drive long distances.
We run them in all our Street/Strip A bodies and it
really make a difference.
 
Hey all,
I've got a 73 Duster with a 360 LA and 727 that I rebuilt myself, and I'm looking for suggestions to make more power down low. The engine is bored over 0.040, has KB 107 pistons, 9.6:1 compression ratio, stock crank and rods, Summit K6901 camshaft 218/228 0.441 lift, stock J heads, stock cast iron intake, Holley 600 cfm vacuum secondaries,
Being brutally honest here.

The camshaft sucks. Your LSA should be a 106 with 1.88 intake valves which are stock J heads.
If you have 2.02’s, a 108 will do.
The intake is OK, a Weiand Action Plus or LD-340 is better.
Use a 750 carb.
TCI 141500 converter, 3.23 rear gears, timing set at 12-15 degrees BTC.
I don’t know what stall that’s rated at. Please post the stall rating or flash point of the converter.
3.91-4.10 gears
Bump the initial ignition to 20*’s, limit max advance to 36. 52 total with vacuum hooked up.
My build is meant to be a street machine on a budget, it runs well but it feels a little lacking off the line. Any suggestions for making better power would be much appreciated.

Spelling edit
 
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Assuming your running optimal tuning, once you done basic hot rodding cam carb cr exhaust etc.. it's hard to make significant gains in the bottom rpm range eg 2500-3000 rpms and down, now 3000-5000+ rpms you can make great gains in tq rumblefish360 covered it quite well.

hp% of tq at 1313 rpm = 25%, 2626 rpm = 50%, 3939 rpm = 75% etc.. so even if you could get a decent gain of tq in the 1313-2626 rpm range eg.. 30tq = 7.5-15hp, your better off with more stall and gear so you don't spend much/any time under 3000 rpm.
 
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2500 rpm street converter would make a big difference
OR
A 100 shot of nitrous, it will definitely solve any torque problems, cheap, easy to install horsepower
Where else are you going to get 100 hp for $500
 
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The wide 114 LSA is a torque killer. Moving it to a 108 will add torque.
The smaller barrels of the 650 limit air flow. The car will not have a significant mileage loss with the bigger carb. Just tune it, re jet it accordingly.
While I can’t stand the company “MSD,” a multi spark ignition will add everything they state, easier starting, better fuel economy & yes, power. Even if you don’t have a multi spark ignition or any upgrades to it, you have to make sure it is in top shape. Some power (just a little bit) can be found with a wider or bigger plug gap. This will require testing the changes over and over a few times.

If you don’t find a camshaft with a 108 centerline, you can call the cam company and ask for it to be moved from the typical 110 to a 108 or 106. It is a nominal fee, cheap. I asked Comp Cams to do this on a XE285HL for me. They said, No problem! There was a small lead time of a week. Sent straight from Comp.

You didn’t mention if you had headers or not, but they do add power everywhere. IF! You decide to do headers, the best and among the least expensive units I suggest and use are a set from Summit racing. While inexpensive, they do have a thicker flange @ 3/8 thick and have always fit well. I’m running a set right now on my Duster. I have them coupled to a Summit exhaust at 2-1/2 inches. Minor trimming is needed. There exhaust set up is quoted to be used with Hooker headers, pay no attention to that.

IMG_3491.jpeg


IMG_3490.jpeg
 
Holley 600 cfm vacuum secondaries, TCI 141500 converter, 3.23 rear gears, timing set at 12-15 degrees BTC
This indicates that it hasn't been tuned.
So that is your next step now that the build is complete.
A hot rod can not be set to specifications worked out by the factory because by defination the hot rodded engine is unique.
You can use the factory info, etc as a baseline, but to adjust the timing and fueling requires making changes, one at a time, and then testing for improvement.

The best way to tune is begin at the lowest rpm (idle) to develop the most torque. Make a small change to timing, adjust fuel mix if and test for power in gear (least change of rpm engaging drive if an automatic). The reason for starting with idle rather than wide open throttle or high rpm cruise is that both timing and carburetion at higher rpms/wider throttle openings build on the low rpm/ closed throttle settings.

Before getting too far along in the process of tuning there are two things you must measure.
1. Closed throttle position relative to the transfer slots. (see post below)
2. Timing versus rpm from as slow as it will go to as fast as you are comfortable. (example here)
 
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Can you run a compression check for us as well? We ought to make sure the engine is healthy first.

Yeah the cam sucks. But it's pretty small, hard to imagine picking up loads of low end from a cam change. I do agree that you'll be able to pick some up but I wouldn't expect it to be a game changer by itself.

Bump that initial timing up per recommendation it'll help.

Headers will help build more low end to midrange grunt. That's going to be one of the biggest changes you can make for cheap. I second the summit headers suggestion. They have nice thick flanges unlike the hedman or hooker cheapo headers.

People don't want to spend money on decent torque converters and gearing but this is probably the single biggest area you could change and would transform the car from mundane to monster.

If you're on a tight budget, this is the order I'd go in:

Compression check
Correct timing curve
Summit headers
Edelbrock air gap or similar Intake manifold/carb
Converter
Gears
Cam upgrade (to match your new converter and gears)

Do this stuff and it should hit pretty hard in the launch.
 
With a Holley 4150/60.
First. Always check fuel level in both bowls before getting into the tune.
Most have sight plugs on the bowl. Traditional sight plugs are located so the fuel level should be just at the bottom of the plug (primary) and a little lower on the secondary bowl. New big clear window plugs aer usually set near the middle.

With carb off the engine check the primary transfer slot exposure under the throttle plates at idle are in the range of .020 - .040"
If it gets out of range, then there will be a delay or bog while driving or accelerating as the throttle opens. explanation here
You can check with feeler gage or drill bits.
1693831738133.png

The drill bit is next to the transfer slot.
The hole is the idle port.
Write down how many 1/4 turns in of the idle speed screw from just touching gets .020, 030, and .040.
Then you'll always know how far open the throttles are without removing the carb from the intake.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Tuning for Performance.
This requires systematic trial and error to improve performance. Performance defined as power, torque and engine efficiency.
To do this, work with steady state conditions first.
Compare power and engine efficiency with something other than seat of pants.

Start at the idle and work up.
Idle and off idle are your foundations. If its crappy at idle then the engine is going to have to clear up before it can respond to additional throttle.
Performance here is going to be demonstrated by running fairly clean exhaust output and how little throttle is needed
(manual) to get into first gear without stalling.
(automatic) lose the least rpm when placed in drive.
Alternatively have the best vacuum at a given rpm in drive.
Work with initial timing, idle speed screw (transfer slots), and idle mixture screws.

Next confirm off-idle has good performance by very slowly accelerating from stop with no hesitation.
This test minimizes the role of the pump shot and focus on the idle circuit's begining of transition.
If that's good, then test more normal acceleration (for public streets) from stop to make sure the pump shot is not too much or too little for this basic job.

Then you can test out steady driving at various speeds. The fuel ratio at steady interstate highway speeds is determined by main jet and its air bleeds. Local highways is partial or completely idle circuit (transition slot, idle feed restriction and idle aiir bleed). So when possible drive steady interstate speeds to tune the main jets.
If jetting too lean, it will surge. Slow down and take it back to garage. Increase primary jets.

If you have access to the strip or dyno you can test wide open throttle in 3 or 4th gear. AFR at wide open throttle is controlled by the jets plus power valve channel restrictions. Change jets for the best mph through the lights.
If primary jetting for best power is different than jetting for best interstate highway mpg, adjust the power valve restrictions.

All the above tests are effected by timing. If you change timing at a given rpm and condition, then retest before change fuel mixture for that condition.

Once all that is tuned, then concentrate on transition conditions. They are:
opening the throttle quickly from low rpm (pump shot).
power valve opening point.

Reality is you may have to go out of sequence. You will almost certainly have to make repeats. How many repeats depends on how much interest and persistance you have.

Good luck!
 
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Not to be a dick…. I would not use the rpm intake at this stage.
The OEM intake is up to task.
 
The camshaft sucks. Your LSA should be a 106 with 1.88 intake valves which are stock J heads.
Agree with using the 128 formula for the lobe separation on this combo. IF the heads and springs can accomodate the extra lift, this cam would work well with a custom converter and more gears if you want a big mid range hit.
CLE4N 230/235 [email protected], 480/495, 106LC, 2500-6800 Cam & Lifters
If you want to keep the stock converter and don't have a a lot of room for extra lift, what Rob says with the 108 ground to a 106 with this cam would do what you want.
DODGE Howards Cams 710991-08 Howards Cams Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts | Summit Racing
If you have room for the .500ish lift (you didn't mention rockers, but if it's got stamped steel stock rockers the actual ratio is probably closer to 1.3-1.4 than 1.5), then this cam with matching springs will work best with what you have ground onto a 106.
But totally agree with making sure the tune up is right first and foremost, too.
 
Hey all,
I've got a 73 Duster with a 360 LA and 727 that I rebuilt myself, and I'm looking for suggestions to make more power down low. The engine is bored over 0.040, has KB 107 pistons, 9.6:1 compression ratio, stock crank and rods, Summit K6901 camshaft 218/228 0.441 lift, stock J heads, stock cast iron intake, Holley 600 cfm vacuum secondaries, TCI 141500 converter, 3.23 rear gears, timing set at 12-15 degrees BTC. My build is meant to be a street machine on a budget, it runs well but it feels a little lacking off the line. Any suggestions for making better power would be much appreciated.
I just got up, so I read it twice and still might have missed it..... But how did you measure "lacking off the line" ? An ET slip 60 ft time? Expectations - 2 inch wheelie?? None of us know if the tune is right or not because we have nothing to go off of except your expectations.
 
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If you're able to post a video, that may help decide wether you need to retune or you need a stronger combination.
 
I think the only objective way to measure whether the car is tuned to its potential is to make a change and test it for power.
With an automatic its pretty easy to check power in gear at slow idle. RPM and vacuum are measureable.
Top end will require going to a strip or a dyno but that's for later.
 
I just got up, so I read it twice and still might have missed it..... But how did you measure "lacking off the line" ? An ET slip 60 ft time? Expectations - 2 inch wheelie?? None of us know if the tune is right or not because we have nothing to go off of except your expectations. Need to know how you specifically measured the cars success against your expectations. In other words, if you are thinking 1.5 60 ft times and the car cut a 1.92 60 ft time, I'd say the car is running pretty good and your expectation is way too high.
I think it’s closer to a butt dyno feel coupled with a low gear ratio than any time slip.
 
Alecb the guys have covered everything. I like to use a vacuum guage when doing the tune, it can also reveal any engine problems. My engine has an unknown performance cam (bigger than stock) so initial timing would be guesswork. It's an iron headed 340 with 2.02 j heads and a sixpack. I just set timing up for highest vacuum reading at idle and backed it off a touch and then set total timing. If you keep that cam I agree bigger carb and decent converter. BTW I'm lazy so the vacuum guage tells me a lot without doing a lot of work. :)
 
I think it’s closer to a butt dyno feel coupled with a low gear ratio than any time slip.
I agree, but I wouldn't have a clue what he was expecting vs what he experienced in the car. Maybe he'll give us more info on what he was expecting vs what happened.
 
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Isky 270 Mega cam(in at 104) and a converter that flashes to an honest 3000 are the two changes I would make that are beyond the basic “tuning” guidelines.

After that I’d go with a carb that has mechanical secondaries.

Edit- I re-read the first post. No mention of headers.
My suggestions are based on the car having headers.
If it doesn’t have them, then they should be the first upgrade.
 
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You make no mention of ignition. What are you running? What's the timing curve? Also, was the camshaft degreed? That combo kinda screams off idle grunt. It should be a tire melter.
I'm currently running stock ignition, a regular distributor with a blue ignition module. I did put some medium springs on the weights. The ballast resistor is bypassed. I didn't degree the cam, just lined up the dots and sent it.
 
Being brutally honest here.

The camshaft sucks. Your LSA should be a 106 with 1.88 intake valves which are stock J heads.
If you have 2.02’s, a 108 will do.
The intake is OK, a Weiand Action Plus or LD-340 is better.
Use a 750 carb.

I don’t know what stall that’s rated at. Please post the stall rating or flash point of the converter.
3.91-4.10 gears
Bump the initial ignition to 20*’s, limit max advance to 36. 52 total with vacuum hooked up.


Spelling edit
My converter stall is 1600-2000, it's listed as street/strip. I do have a thermoquad I was considering rebuilding and putting on my engine, I believe it's 800 cfm.
 
The wide 114 LSA is a torque killer. Moving it to a 108 will add torque.
The smaller barrels of the 650 limit air flow. The car will not have a significant mileage loss with the bigger carb. Just tune it, re jet it accordingly.
While I can’t stand the company “MSD,” a multi spark ignition will add everything they state, easier starting, better fuel economy & yes, power. Even if you don’t have a multi spark ignition or any upgrades to it, you have to make sure it is in top shape. Some power (just a little bit) can be found with a wider or bigger plug gap. This will require testing the changes over and over a few times.

If you don’t find a camshaft with a 108 centerline, you can call the cam company and ask for it to be moved from the typical 110 to a 108 or 106. It is a nominal fee, cheap. I asked Comp Cams to do this on a XE285HL for me. They said, No problem! There was a small lead time of a week. Sent straight from Comp.

You didn’t mention if you had headers or not, but they do add power everywhere. IF! You decide to do headers, the best and among the least expensive units I suggest and use are a set from Summit racing. While inexpensive, they do have a thicker flange @ 3/8 thick and have always fit well. I’m running a set right now on my Duster. I have them coupled to a Summit exhaust at 2-1/2 inches. Minor trimming is needed. There exhaust set up is quoted to be used with Hooker headers, pay no attention to that.

View attachment 1716137275

View attachment 1716137276
I'm currently running manifolds, I have power steering on my car and it looks like it would be a big fight to get headers on there. Eventually, I would like to get a set of Doug's headers when the budget permits it. The summit cam I'm running was on sale which is partly why I bought it, I wasn't sure what to get as this is my first engine build so I stuck with something close to stock. Might have to go with a Comp XE268 or something later.
 
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