Another quote from the "It's a wonder they run at all" book. lol
Machine shop 440 Mopar questions?
- Thread starter BigBlockBanjo
- Start date
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Another quote from the "It's a wonder they run at all" book. lol
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
I just had a BBC completely machined. .030 over on the bore, magged for cracks, trued up the decks (from the main line not the pan rail) and took .010 off on one side and .012 off on the other, hot tanked, finished honed with torque plates to my specs with pistons in hand, installed durabond cam bearings. Total price $700. This is in Southern California so demographic and demand will certainly change things. Just wanted to give you a reference. Work was done in 3 weeks and they called me 4 times in those 3 weeks to discuss different things. I had a quote with written “wants” on carbon copy and they did exactly what I asked them to do, I did not tell them HOW to do it. I have a very good friend who is a machinist for a couple of large sprint car teams and was up front with them that he and I would be checking their work. They welcomed the idea. That in my opinion is a good machine shop.
Yes that is a good one!
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Did you actually read what I posted? I didn’t excuse the shop for not using the plate. I explained that the OP isnt a machinist and he has no business tell the shop how to fit a piston. And he doesn’t. If he knew what was what, he’d have known pistons today aren’t like what we had years ago. You can finish a bore to nominal size and it will be right unless the pistons are poorly made. Then you send the pistons back.
I’d be pissed they didn’t use the plate. But there is no unscrewing that now, because putting the plate on and honing it again will certainly make the bores too big. That’s why I said just run it unless he wants to send the pistons out to be coated to make up the clearance. Or start with a new block.
You have to be pragmatic about the situation. It is what it is.
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
Possibly they
Wonder what kind of finish the MS put on the cylinder bores. It is different depending upon moly vs chrome rings.
The same thing goes for the head deck finish. A multilayered gasket wants a different finish than a composite gasket does.
If the customer does not specify what he wants a good machine shop would ask.
Concerning pistons, cast, hypers, forged will all have different clearance requirements. I know one can assume that the piston mfg made the pistons to a nominal size, but I would rather not be guessing on something as critical as piston clearances.
Wonder what kind of finish the MS put on the cylinder bores. It is different depending upon moly vs chrome rings.
The same thing goes for the head deck finish. A multilayered gasket wants a different finish than a composite gasket does.
If the customer does not specify what he wants a good machine shop would ask.
Couple options to consider.
You stated that the shop doesn't have a deck plate. Take a head to the shop to bolt to the block. Have the shop check the cylinder from the bottom and see if/or how bad the cylinder is. Make a decision bases on results.
If you don't trust that shop have another shop check it.
Make it a learning experience if you're up for it.
You stated that the shop doesn't have a deck plate. Take a head to the shop to bolt to the block. Have the shop check the cylinder from the bottom and see if/or how bad the cylinder is. Make a decision bases on results.
If you don't trust that shop have another shop check it.
Make it a learning experience if you're up for it.
j par
Well-hung Member
This is a tick of a pickle and what happened to customers always being right? LOL..
First $600 for a block with main caps and I'm sure it was a complete engine seems a little expensive at least here where I live... Not to say there isn't people asking that and more but what people will pay for one...
In 2013 I had a small block 360 prepped for a stroker and it was about $450. This last year the same shop prepped basically the same block and it was $700.. and here's the big one and something I always have them do it's for the extra $500 they dumped my stroker kid in there... I could have put it all in there no big deal but for the extra $500 it's done they've done all the measurements and made everything right.. and yes that was a torque plated..
And the finest finishes to use cemetic gaskets if I so choose. ..
So $1,200 got everything done on a small block..
I've had these kind of miscommunications in the past.. on the first motor I said I do not need the bottoms of the block notched because they're I beam rods... It was discussed and sure enough they notched the bottom of the block and I said something and I agreed with them to split the cost it wasn't that much. Mostly to keep everything nice and icy...
Here's the way I personally would approach your situation... Of course eye to eye and not when there's a line of customers or anything like that but when you have someone on one time... Let him know you understand that he has hundreds and hundreds of different engines that he's doing and that's why it takes so dang long for them to get done. Not that he's not working as fast and is efficient as they possibly can but he has quite a lot on his plate.. remind him that you only have one engine on your plate only one minded thing so your attention to everything that's going on with it is singular focused... With both of these thoughts in mind you probably may not remember that we talked three times about a torque plate. But on the other hand that's all I have to think about.. for all intent and purposes you can keep that crank because I have no intention of using it as I discussed with you I'm buying a stroker kit... I hope you can now see my concerns of paying absolute top dollar for what wasn't discussed...
At this point I would be considering cutting my losses completely and telling him to keep it all... You're going to be $1,800 here very quickly into something you don't even want... Maybe calling around to some of these other recommended places and seeing how much they would charge to get the job done?.. if it comes up $800 and you can find another block for 4 to $600 which still is a bit expensive you're still 12 to $1,400 into what you really wanted in the first place... And I would highly recommend just giving them the stroker kit and having a short block...
In the end it's a rough one and it wasn't you that made it rough...
First $600 for a block with main caps and I'm sure it was a complete engine seems a little expensive at least here where I live... Not to say there isn't people asking that and more but what people will pay for one...
In 2013 I had a small block 360 prepped for a stroker and it was about $450. This last year the same shop prepped basically the same block and it was $700.. and here's the big one and something I always have them do it's for the extra $500 they dumped my stroker kid in there... I could have put it all in there no big deal but for the extra $500 it's done they've done all the measurements and made everything right.. and yes that was a torque plated..
And the finest finishes to use cemetic gaskets if I so choose. ..
So $1,200 got everything done on a small block..
I've had these kind of miscommunications in the past.. on the first motor I said I do not need the bottoms of the block notched because they're I beam rods... It was discussed and sure enough they notched the bottom of the block and I said something and I agreed with them to split the cost it wasn't that much. Mostly to keep everything nice and icy...
Here's the way I personally would approach your situation... Of course eye to eye and not when there's a line of customers or anything like that but when you have someone on one time... Let him know you understand that he has hundreds and hundreds of different engines that he's doing and that's why it takes so dang long for them to get done. Not that he's not working as fast and is efficient as they possibly can but he has quite a lot on his plate.. remind him that you only have one engine on your plate only one minded thing so your attention to everything that's going on with it is singular focused... With both of these thoughts in mind you probably may not remember that we talked three times about a torque plate. But on the other hand that's all I have to think about.. for all intent and purposes you can keep that crank because I have no intention of using it as I discussed with you I'm buying a stroker kit... I hope you can now see my concerns of paying absolute top dollar for what wasn't discussed...
At this point I would be considering cutting my losses completely and telling him to keep it all... You're going to be $1,800 here very quickly into something you don't even want... Maybe calling around to some of these other recommended places and seeing how much they would charge to get the job done?.. if it comes up $800 and you can find another block for 4 to $600 which still is a bit expensive you're still 12 to $1,400 into what you really wanted in the first place... And I would highly recommend just giving them the stroker kit and having a short block...
In the end it's a rough one and it wasn't you that made it rough...
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I agree 100%. The piston should have the clearance built into it. If it comes out the box at nominal size I’d send them back.
I also agree that surface finish and such should have been discussed but the shop should be asking the questions. If they aren’t asking about the gaskets and the rings you are using then that’s a hint you may want to find another shop. That is the responsibility of the shop to know what finished and clearances to use and to educate the customer. Anything less than that and you start looking for a different shop.
You don’t have to assume or guess the piston clearance. You can measure the bore and the piston. Or have the shop measure them if you don't have the tools . It would be nice to have the piston before hand but you still have options. If a piston is out of spec either before or after the block is machined you can send the pistons back. I think you will find todays pistons are pretty consistent but if they're not send them back. When he gets his pistons he can have whoever measure both pistons and bore and if both were both done correctly he is good to go. I wouldn't assemble without measuring. If you did then you are assuming or guessing.
I agree totally there are some things that are the shop's responsibility. No gettin around it. But, these things are not cheap to build. IMO, the customer should AT LEAST know things like the differences between cast, hyper and forged clearances, etc. If someone is totally green, PICK UP A BOOK, SEARCH THE INTERNET, TALK TO A KNOWLEDGEABLE FRIEND, but GET the information somehow. It's pretty important. There are simply some things a customer should know going in. And I tell you what. I WILL tell a shop how and what I want done or I'll take it somewhere else.
Do you have pistons yet?
I'm a new machinist, I like to have the Pistons before boring to measure them, that being said every oversized piston that I have measured is smaller than the finished bore. That is the clearance, so that is acceptable practice. It has already been stated but I toss 2 cents into the pot.
On the torque plate deal I'd think that long bore of a 440 would be a highly recommend candidate for use of torque plates, there's alot of metal to shave, that minimal heat translates to tenths of thousands of distortion so when it cools it can have more clearance, but I have been leaving between .002 -.003 under for honing & measure each bore in multiple areas multiple times until I creep up to my .0005 needed for the finish hone. Usually it's really straight. But when the head is bolted on it will pull and distort the bore, how much I don't know that yet
On the torque plate deal I'd think that long bore of a 440 would be a highly recommend candidate for use of torque plates, there's alot of metal to shave, that minimal heat translates to tenths of thousands of distortion so when it cools it can have more clearance, but I have been leaving between .002 -.003 under for honing & measure each bore in multiple areas multiple times until I creep up to my .0005 needed for the finish hone. Usually it's really straight. But when the head is bolted on it will pull and distort the bore, how much I don't know that yet
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BigBlockBanjo
BigBlockBanjo
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Hey guys,
Didn't get a chance to go by the machine shop this past week, I will this week.
Point well taken about the piston sizing and modern materials. Whoever said that's his buisness not mine, is correct...thats why I took it to him to handle. I can take those licks standing up, and learn from them; that -is- why I'm asking for opinions here. My rub is this: I asked 3 times (and was assured 3 times) that he would call me after he checked out the block. Yes, 600 in an unknown engine is higher than I wanted to pay, but 440s are hens teeth around here, and it was 600 "trade" value, with an RV 727 bolted to it....so Regardless I was happy to get my hands on this engine. I want a stroker. I took him the short block, and he was supossed to check it out for cracks, core shift, etc before I put another cent into parts or labor on it. I have nothing else for this motor. Bad block? I would have paid him his fee and licked my wounds for the bad block pick. No foul. See, had he called saying the block checked out, (my first question on every call), I was going to get some studs/gaskets/torque plate for this thing. I was going to communicate this when he called like he said he would (!). I guess I should have Crayola colored that this was not a stock motorhome rebuild? I got no call saying it's gtg, no questions on ring type, piston type, stroke length (I said stroker a dozen times), nada. Just "block and crank ready". And I know the block distorts every way to Sunday, and nothing would be perfect without honing a fully stressed block heated to operating temp. BUT, that is a poor outlook on our hobby. That's like saying if it's not F1 spec, might as well use the local parts house discount rebuild bundle and call it good. We all have various degrees of money to throw at our projects, and we improve what we can afford. Stroker big blocks with good modern pistons almost always use metric/light low drag ring packs. No way a torque plate will make those seal worse. Will it be the best of the best? No. Should it have been used for $1200, absolutely in my mind. And I was gonna eat the plate and gasket cost. I'm also kinda miffed about the crank...I didnt want the crank turned. If I see he charged me $1-150 to turn it I'll let that slide. But if it's more than that I may let him keep it. He may keep the whole thing; I hope he will be willing to re bore/hone with a plate for no extra charge, considering the circumstances. We will see. If this goes sour the engine choice may change, and I'll just change shops. I may have to put the Slant six back in the car....that thing got more jaws slack than the V8 cars when the hood was open. Offy 4 barrel, Eddy 500, Custom solid cam from Schneider with .480 lift, 244@ .050 dur. Ported everywhere, with .125 milled off the head. It ran good for what it was....but I want a big block dangit.
Thanks for the price point comparison also, that's the ball park I was thinking. I know Socal is more expensive on most things, so I don't feel like my expectations were low to think the cost should be around that vs $1200. I didn't get anything in writing, why? Because he was going to check the block and call me....
Didn't get a chance to go by the machine shop this past week, I will this week.
Point well taken about the piston sizing and modern materials. Whoever said that's his buisness not mine, is correct...thats why I took it to him to handle. I can take those licks standing up, and learn from them; that -is- why I'm asking for opinions here. My rub is this: I asked 3 times (and was assured 3 times) that he would call me after he checked out the block. Yes, 600 in an unknown engine is higher than I wanted to pay, but 440s are hens teeth around here, and it was 600 "trade" value, with an RV 727 bolted to it....so Regardless I was happy to get my hands on this engine. I want a stroker. I took him the short block, and he was supossed to check it out for cracks, core shift, etc before I put another cent into parts or labor on it. I have nothing else for this motor. Bad block? I would have paid him his fee and licked my wounds for the bad block pick. No foul. See, had he called saying the block checked out, (my first question on every call), I was going to get some studs/gaskets/torque plate for this thing. I was going to communicate this when he called like he said he would (!). I guess I should have Crayola colored that this was not a stock motorhome rebuild? I got no call saying it's gtg, no questions on ring type, piston type, stroke length (I said stroker a dozen times), nada. Just "block and crank ready". And I know the block distorts every way to Sunday, and nothing would be perfect without honing a fully stressed block heated to operating temp. BUT, that is a poor outlook on our hobby. That's like saying if it's not F1 spec, might as well use the local parts house discount rebuild bundle and call it good. We all have various degrees of money to throw at our projects, and we improve what we can afford. Stroker big blocks with good modern pistons almost always use metric/light low drag ring packs. No way a torque plate will make those seal worse. Will it be the best of the best? No. Should it have been used for $1200, absolutely in my mind. And I was gonna eat the plate and gasket cost. I'm also kinda miffed about the crank...I didnt want the crank turned. If I see he charged me $1-150 to turn it I'll let that slide. But if it's more than that I may let him keep it. He may keep the whole thing; I hope he will be willing to re bore/hone with a plate for no extra charge, considering the circumstances. We will see. If this goes sour the engine choice may change, and I'll just change shops. I may have to put the Slant six back in the car....that thing got more jaws slack than the V8 cars when the hood was open. Offy 4 barrel, Eddy 500, Custom solid cam from Schneider with .480 lift, 244@ .050 dur. Ported everywhere, with .125 milled off the head. It ran good for what it was....but I want a big block dangit.
Thanks for the price point comparison also, that's the ball park I was thinking. I know Socal is more expensive on most things, so I don't feel like my expectations were low to think the cost should be around that vs $1200. I didn't get anything in writing, why? Because he was going to check the block and call me....
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
His fault in all this is not covering ALL these things before he agreed to do the work. You shouldn’t be buying a torque plate unless you can make money with it. The shop should buy the plate. Grinding the crank isn’t a big deal unless you measured it and it was good. There was a time if a guy had a standard/standard crank they’d lose their mind to turn it. They’d live with undersized and/or out of round journals and spend hours mixing and matching bearings. It was insanity squared. Turning .100 or even .150 off a throw is no big deal so .010 for a straight round journal is nothing. That’s far more important than a standard crank.
He should have used a torque plate. FWIW, thinner rings will out seal those obsolete rings every way. The thinner you are under 5/64 rings the better. A 1/16 ring should be considered obsolete by todays standard for anything.
He should have used a torque plate. FWIW, thinner rings will out seal those obsolete rings every way. The thinner you are under 5/64 rings the better. A 1/16 ring should be considered obsolete by todays standard for anything.
440 finish hone to size must be done with both torque plates and main cap in place and torqued. If your using studs on heads or mains they must be in the block. Pistons have to be in hand for every cylinder and the piston used for that cylinder must be numbered and returned to that hole when assembled. 8 pistons 8 holes that could vary. Also to finish the block prep for a stroker. The crank ,Rods, and pistons must be there to clearance the block.
We had a set of pistons the pistons were .0015 different. You can't bore a engine like they did especially a 440 with 5 bolts per cylinder there *** holes. I would tell them to shove the crank up their *** and your coming for your block. Your going to have to pay another shop to fix your block. You may need bigger pistons if the bore is screwed up. You probably left them a short block and they tore the crank out that is why it was there.
I just called my son at the shop and explained your dilemma. He laughed and said another one bites the dust. You would not believe the engines we get here from small block chevy wanna be shops. Most of their machines are from the 50's and they learn as they destroy roundy round engines. And its never their fault. They do a lot of them and usually the same ones over and over and over and over again.
Good luck I told you what I would do. Actually I would tell them to keep the dam thing its probably junk and find another block from a camper . They give those campers away. you just have to scrap whats left. Or go to a pick and pull $125. My son has a collection. BCR makes a nice girdle for the Big block now. He is getting a girdle for one here. This eliminates the expense of a race block for guys just building budget strokers.
He talked to Bill Mitchell on the phone today to order a aluminum race block. $6200 30-60 days out not bad. Indy's suck and no one can get the alloys for iron blocks right now. Long wait times. Good luck, threaten them with a no payment and your complaint. Maybe they'll wake the hell up and smell the coffee.
We had a set of pistons the pistons were .0015 different. You can't bore a engine like they did especially a 440 with 5 bolts per cylinder there *** holes. I would tell them to shove the crank up their *** and your coming for your block. Your going to have to pay another shop to fix your block. You may need bigger pistons if the bore is screwed up. You probably left them a short block and they tore the crank out that is why it was there.
I just called my son at the shop and explained your dilemma. He laughed and said another one bites the dust. You would not believe the engines we get here from small block chevy wanna be shops. Most of their machines are from the 50's and they learn as they destroy roundy round engines. And its never their fault. They do a lot of them and usually the same ones over and over and over and over again.
Good luck I told you what I would do. Actually I would tell them to keep the dam thing its probably junk and find another block from a camper . They give those campers away. you just have to scrap whats left. Or go to a pick and pull $125. My son has a collection. BCR makes a nice girdle for the Big block now. He is getting a girdle for one here. This eliminates the expense of a race block for guys just building budget strokers.
He talked to Bill Mitchell on the phone today to order a aluminum race block. $6200 30-60 days out not bad. Indy's suck and no one can get the alloys for iron blocks right now. Long wait times. Good luck, threaten them with a no payment and your complaint. Maybe they'll wake the hell up and smell the coffee.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
if you don't have pistons yet ask the machinist to bore to 040 and hone with a torque plate. tell him he can sell the reground crank that you don't want (and won't be paying for) to cover his costs because you are going with a stroker kit as you told him in the first place. if you're ok buying the torque plate that'll help sweeten him to keep the job done well and then just sell it afterwards. you said at the start he's a known good machinist but works with mostly bbc so maybe work it out and get what you want.
neil.
neil.
One thing to think about is piston alloy as well. There's no way to finish hone a clearance without knowing what you're going to run, some need tighter clearance, some loser, the application matters, a boat with cast piston will need much more clearance, a drag car clearance will be different from which forged alloys used, hypereutectic wants tight a few tenths to half a thousandths. I'm still learning but I've learned this doing it over the last couple weeks.
I agree with what your saying but most piston manufacturers have moved towards making the bore size standard and the piston size to suit the material it is made of. Still I would prefer to have the pistons in hand before machining but that's not always possible. Some pistons have a coating on the skirts that doesn't allow you to measure them. The manufacturer just tells you the finish bore size.
BigBlockBanjo
BigBlockBanjo
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Hey all; thank you for all the help/info. Oldmanmopar, I appreciate that last post. I've been reading and studying the stroker situation, and I've almost scared myself away from that. Its been on the back burner for a few years, so maybe I had my head in the clouds from all the bs magazine articles. I know, the internet is always right, (lol) but it seems a stroker kit, when built proper to justify it, really needs a good aftermarket block. Seems the consensus is, by the time you 4 bolt cap/girdle a block, plus short fill(shouldve done that already smh), plus all the other stroker "insurance" prep, its not a -huge- stretch from a good aftermarket block that would be- much- better for the engine I had in my head.
On to the machine shop...I was kind of hot on the way over, and halfway there I realized I needed to chill. Its hard earned money, but I figured Id be shooting myself in the foot going in hot. So I walked in, nobody was there but the owner and his employee, and I kindly rehashed the same concerns I've shared here.
The machinist was -very- apologetic, and he happily agreed to re bore/hone the block with a plate. no charge. I'll buy the darn plate. I'll use it again/sell it/whatever. Still cheaper than taking it somewhere else at this point, right? He also had just cleaned up the decks, but didnt square them to crank/cam datum as he didnt have a fixture for that either. sigh. BUT he is ordering a bunch of new tooling and said he will get a 440 decking fixture also and throw it back on free of charge and square it right. I found out my bro in law has bore gauges to check taper, so Ill follow up myself. The crank was $150, so I kept it. Prolly about all its worth, but its fluxed and turned .010/.010. It also seems many people use cast cranks with lighter pistons to get the bobweight down? I have questions about this Ill ask in another thread to keep it on topic. Gonna leave this open ended for now, until I get hands on block and follow up with more numbers.
As was mentioned earlier, this may be "another one bites the dust", but If I can build a nice 440 out of this yet, Ill consider my stupid tax relatively low. Should've found a more "Mopar" shop, but this is where I'm at today. I expect even a 500hp 440 will be a chore to hook asphalt in a 72 Dart Swinger, so I will have other things to worry about. Anyone thats been following this, Ill appreciate your input in my other thread so I can order what I need. Cheers till next time.
On to the machine shop...I was kind of hot on the way over, and halfway there I realized I needed to chill. Its hard earned money, but I figured Id be shooting myself in the foot going in hot. So I walked in, nobody was there but the owner and his employee, and I kindly rehashed the same concerns I've shared here.
The machinist was -very- apologetic, and he happily agreed to re bore/hone the block with a plate. no charge. I'll buy the darn plate. I'll use it again/sell it/whatever. Still cheaper than taking it somewhere else at this point, right? He also had just cleaned up the decks, but didnt square them to crank/cam datum as he didnt have a fixture for that either. sigh. BUT he is ordering a bunch of new tooling and said he will get a 440 decking fixture also and throw it back on free of charge and square it right. I found out my bro in law has bore gauges to check taper, so Ill follow up myself. The crank was $150, so I kept it. Prolly about all its worth, but its fluxed and turned .010/.010. It also seems many people use cast cranks with lighter pistons to get the bobweight down? I have questions about this Ill ask in another thread to keep it on topic. Gonna leave this open ended for now, until I get hands on block and follow up with more numbers.
As was mentioned earlier, this may be "another one bites the dust", but If I can build a nice 440 out of this yet, Ill consider my stupid tax relatively low. Should've found a more "Mopar" shop, but this is where I'm at today. I expect even a 500hp 440 will be a chore to hook asphalt in a 72 Dart Swinger, so I will have other things to worry about. Anyone thats been following this, Ill appreciate your input in my other thread so I can order what I need. Cheers till next time.
A WELL balanced and prepped cast crank will stand 550 plus hp. So there's THAT. Chrysler, like Ford used nodular iron in their casting process, which is MUCH stronger than regular grey cast iron. It's good the shop is going to make it right. I do hope it ends up right. Good luck!
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