Machine Shop Prices
- Thread starter Plymouth Power
- Start date
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
The machine shops get boned by not having a standardized system like book time for mechanics.
It would be better for the shop, better for the employees and more shops would be successful.
It would be better for the shop, better for the employees and more shops would be successful.
trigger_andy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2006
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Surely you know that you cant compare one of the most unjustifiably expensive countries in the world to the rest of the Western World?
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
yeah up martinsville down past patric henry collage,..buddys been retired,..joeys been running the show for years,..before mopar pulled outta nascrap it was all W7 stuff,..since then its new hemi bolt ons and such...
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
know where ball park rd is,..guess ill be looking him up soon then...
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
OK, thanks, that is cool.... I can remember seeing Buddy drive in the Grand Nationals when I was a kid..... I did not follow where he ended up so that is nice that they have stayed in the business in some fashion.
My dad took to me to my 1st Grand National at the '63 spring Martinsville race. Back when the walls were all cinder blocks LOL. Got to meet Wendell Scott; he was making laps in someone's used '62 Chevy, and seemed pretty pleased that someone (my dad) came up and talked to him after the race. Things were so down to earth back then....and for a kid of 9 years old, it was awesome!
Good luck in the search for a shop! Wish I was closer.
moper
Well-Known Member
Impressions based solely on the list as shown... It's too cheap.
The signs to me point to very old equipment, or ignorance of modern methods, inexperience, or all of the above. You will get what you pay for and for some, that's the most important variable.
I recently walked through a shop that I haven't dealt with in 20 years. Some of the equipment is the same thing his father had, and it was oldschool in the 80s. Skill or not, eventually things wear out, and as technology improves it's more accurate and takes less time to do better work - but you have equipment payments. So generally the costs go up, or should, just like everything else. In my experience shops go under for one of two reasons: the owner(s) are not as good at business as they might be at machining, or because the customer base believes it's in their best interest to find and buy cheaper at a distance rather than pay a local shop a fair price for quality work. It's like the Summit Racing effect on local speed shops. Or Rock Auto. Or Blueprint...
GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
It's cheap based on my experiences also. But around here, you see the modern day pricing but the 60 y/o equipment. Yes beds do wear and debatable if they get addressed etc. Don't see much reinvestment into equipment. Around here, what's a Serdi.
moper
Well-Known Member
Yup. That's everywhere from what I've experienced and heard. The automatic (CNC) Rottler that does my blocks will align bore, square deck, blueprint the cylinder locations and rough bore, and can true up the ends of the block in relation to the crank centerline in about 3 hours with some attending. That was a $100K machine when it was bought less than 10 years ago. I'm guessing it started making a profit (paid for itself with financing interest) after 5 years or so. That's one peice. Never mind the Serdi head stuff, the Serdi valve grinder, the honing cabinet, the dyno, the flow bench, airless shot blaster, assorted tooling, shop rent or mortgage, business insurance, employees' unemployment insurance, health care costs, salaries, etc etc etc.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
If it cost what some of you are saying it should, the hobby would be over for most of you.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
In rural areas, sometimes you don't have much choice, unless you want to drive 1-2 hours each way. (Like the OP) And that can create issues with communications and understanding. Dropping in regularly to check up on things tends to help. (Unless you pester the shop too much!)
moper
Well-Known Member
Well one always has one's limits. I've found over the years that any individual will find their own way. For many an expensive engine isn't in the cards. Or owning a 426 Hemi. Or a fresh paint job. So does that mean the "hobby [is] over"?
I spend very little on myself for this hobby. I do well for myself but previous poor choices (at least by my definition) and current family situations determine where the money and time go. So I spend as much time as I can and a lot of others' money to make their situation better and still enjoy these cars. Someday maybe I'll be on the other side of the transaction but for me, right now, this is it. It's not like it was in the 80s or early 90s when I had no debt, no house, a big shop, 3 cars that ran and drove, and accounts at speed and machine shops. Two nights a week were about street racing, and 3-4 track events a summer plus shows and cruises. "The hobby" certainly isn't "over" for me and I haven't had a running muscle car or even a 100% intact car for more than 5 years. My Demon's been in pieces since early in Clinton's first term...lol.
I can relate well to the person that has little. When it takes you 4 months to save $400 for "the toy" giving it over to get something means you only have one shot to spend it right. Spending another 4 months to get it right will always be better to me than spending it, being disappointed, and having to spend more after another 4 more months on a second roll of the dice, or potentially on what they should have gotten the first time... but it was too expensive. Fast Cheap Reliable - you can only have two.
I spend very little on myself for this hobby. I do well for myself but previous poor choices (at least by my definition) and current family situations determine where the money and time go. So I spend as much time as I can and a lot of others' money to make their situation better and still enjoy these cars. Someday maybe I'll be on the other side of the transaction but for me, right now, this is it. It's not like it was in the 80s or early 90s when I had no debt, no house, a big shop, 3 cars that ran and drove, and accounts at speed and machine shops. Two nights a week were about street racing, and 3-4 track events a summer plus shows and cruises. "The hobby" certainly isn't "over" for me and I haven't had a running muscle car or even a 100% intact car for more than 5 years. My Demon's been in pieces since early in Clinton's first term...lol.
I can relate well to the person that has little. When it takes you 4 months to save $400 for "the toy" giving it over to get something means you only have one shot to spend it right. Spending another 4 months to get it right will always be better to me than spending it, being disappointed, and having to spend more after another 4 more months on a second roll of the dice, or potentially on what they should have gotten the first time... but it was too expensive. Fast Cheap Reliable - you can only have two.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
360 block , clean/mag ,line honed,studded, squared,bored/honed w/ torque plate .040 $595.00.
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MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
For many, over, but 'maybe' for you and others "limited" would be a better description. The smart ones know "cheap" is when you do it yourself... that is to say the smart ones actually know what they're doing and or at least enough to judge wether or not something is beyond their capability/facilitation.
GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
You pay the price they ask, whatever that might be, and given the nature, a quality job is not an unreasonable expectation. Whether they have the equipment or pride to do the proper job is another story. Do overs, and unusable parts, nobody likes.
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That looks like a 30yr. old price sheet. If you look at inflation, vs what the standard shop equipment prices and standards have changed, the cost of services has not matched
that rise. Not even close, the same with tire prices, etc., etc. . Yet everybody wants to pay what they paid in the early eighties for the same things. Then they pay $2 for a 16oz.
bottle of friggin' water at the show, $1.50 for a decent candy bar, $20 for that really cool t-shirt they just gotta have. You cannot do modern eng. work w/o modern equipment,
the same guy doing your SB just rebuilt a Furd mod eng. that takes plates and fixtures to do right,after he re-did the hyundai head,etc. The time it takes to just discuss your own
project w/you can eat up valuable time, and that goes into the productivity equation as well. Gearheads are looked at by many shops as fussy, problematic, and many times just
educated enough to cause you more headaches than it's worth. Go ahead, educate yourself, then drop 1/4 mill. on equipment(don't touch CNC), then look at the rest of your
overhead. See if YOU would do a top notch bore & hone for $175.
that rise. Not even close, the same with tire prices, etc., etc. . Yet everybody wants to pay what they paid in the early eighties for the same things. Then they pay $2 for a 16oz.
bottle of friggin' water at the show, $1.50 for a decent candy bar, $20 for that really cool t-shirt they just gotta have. You cannot do modern eng. work w/o modern equipment,
the same guy doing your SB just rebuilt a Furd mod eng. that takes plates and fixtures to do right,after he re-did the hyundai head,etc. The time it takes to just discuss your own
project w/you can eat up valuable time, and that goes into the productivity equation as well. Gearheads are looked at by many shops as fussy, problematic, and many times just
educated enough to cause you more headaches than it's worth. Go ahead, educate yourself, then drop 1/4 mill. on equipment(don't touch CNC), then look at the rest of your
overhead. See if YOU would do a top notch bore & hone for $175.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I'd be looking that over real close.
The guy is working for lower than poverty wages.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Always. His **** is paid for, that's the difference.
What are you building, because there is a point where youre just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Maybe this isn't being realized...but most everyone's stuff on this board is a few thou off from deck to deck, end to end...most peoples ports do not flow exactly identical, rod lengths differ...in a lot of people's stuff. Most don't know it and the others do and don't give a ****, because it matters about 0-2 hp in what they're doing...in fact, the machine work they get done at prices some have deemed too/suspiciously cheap ...is usually more accurate than factory line stuff that went 100,000+k miles in the first place.
its all just junk really.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
This post shows me some seriously accurate experience as a business owner right here. Modern equipment is one thing but plain old worn out equipment is another. Making an excessive amount of $$$ in this trade is next to impossible unless you have a product to sell. Finding a shop that truly WANTS to do a great job and one that can is also worth how much to you? For example, I typically charge $50.00 per saddle for a line hone which on most V8's is $250.00 Here I have been entrusted to perform a line hone on a VERY expensive aluminum Buick block. Not wanting to ruin this block and also not having a ton of experience line honing aluminum block/steel cap combos I figured taking the time and material to mount the block unconventionally was the best course of action. I am impressed at how it turned out and was totally worth it IMO. Now the question becomes "What do I charge for the line hone?" I mean surely some would expect the normal fee to be charged however going by straight time invested on my end a normal fee would leave me several hundred short. J.Rob
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Purely IMHO..... (as a business owner who prices unique projects all the time):
- Being a specialty block, a higher charge wouldn't be abnormal, regardless of the state of anyone's tooling or risks or experience.
- If there are very real risks involved that can't be realistically mitigated, then more is justified. But if the risk stems from your inexperience, then that cost is on you. OR the block owner is warned of the risks and told that you can't be held liable. That can drive away business, and if you want to get the experience, then it seems reasonable to take on the cost.
- You get to keep the fixture, so it is capital investment, assuming you can use it on other projects. (Or it is to make your existing equipment work with this unique block, which is your equipment's shortcoming.) If this is only for this block, then that is a cost on the job.
- The customer needs to be told ahead of time on the price, especially if it is higher than normal. If you have to put in extra labor that you did not anticipate, that is your cost.
We have made special tools from time to time for work, and we keep them and bear the materials and time expense.
BTW, how do you keep the hone from going off line into the AL? Just go slow?
- Being a specialty block, a higher charge wouldn't be abnormal, regardless of the state of anyone's tooling or risks or experience.
- If there are very real risks involved that can't be realistically mitigated, then more is justified. But if the risk stems from your inexperience, then that cost is on you. OR the block owner is warned of the risks and told that you can't be held liable. That can drive away business, and if you want to get the experience, then it seems reasonable to take on the cost.
- You get to keep the fixture, so it is capital investment, assuming you can use it on other projects. (Or it is to make your existing equipment work with this unique block, which is your equipment's shortcoming.) If this is only for this block, then that is a cost on the job.
- The customer needs to be told ahead of time on the price, especially if it is higher than normal. If you have to put in extra labor that you did not anticipate, that is your cost.
We have made special tools from time to time for work, and we keep them and bear the materials and time expense.
BTW, how do you keep the hone from going off line into the AL? Just go slow?
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
I just looked at a 340 engine build from January of 2000 in Winnipeg, to line bore the block was $110 and to bore .30 over and hone the block was $110.
Took the same block in last week and it was $150 now to give the block a quick hone.
Took the same block in last week and it was $150 now to give the block a quick hone.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
My **** is built.
My POINT is no one can make it on that kind of money. I don't care if it's paid for or not. His lights ain't paid for, his employees etc.
If you want production machining, that's what you paid for. Do you know how much more time it takes to make a deck square, rather than just slap it in the mill and flatten the out? It take about 15 minutes more.
I'm continually amazed at the coupon clipping, tire kicking, bubble gumming attitude of people. If you are building a dead stock engine, that's one thing, but most guys on here talk like their engine is their first born.
I don't work for poverty wages.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Yup, you are in the pickle. I always charge for stuff like that on time a materials for the first or second one. Once you get it down and are comfortable with it, you can make a set price for it. When I port a head or an intake I've never done before, I always bid it high and then come in low if I can. Who knows how many times you need to flow it, or how many different valve jobs it will take to science it out.
Or, you can do a regular 3 angle valve job, pocket port them and send them out the door. Evidently, that's good enough for most.
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