Main Studs??

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moturbopar said:
I remember when I was younger, and had a lot more fun with cars, we used to throw stupid stuff together. We built a 307 chevy (I know LOL!) that was thrown together, stock cast pistons, double hump heads, 2.02 1.60 valves, home ported, We threw arp rod bolts in the stock rods, no machining, arp main bolts, again no machine work, and a comp 270h. I have no Idea how that engine held together, or even ran. was in a 65 cj5. with 4.27 gears and the stock 3spd trans. Thing was pretty dang quick, won a lot of street races (don't do it anymore!). That thing regularly hit 6500 rpm with a couple missed shifts hit 7000+! Anyways I grew up and learned better, But unfortunately, it costs me a lot more $$$ to build engine now. But for some reason I just have this urge to build a JY engine, on the cheap, say screw the rules lets see what happens!
Click to expand...

True that! I had a BAD rod knock in a 318 when I was about 17 years old. I was getting on it and doing second gear chirps always. Finally I really revved the bageebers out of it and it barked real hard, harder than normal. I came to the stop sign with real bad KNOCK, KNOCK, KNOCK. I drove the car for a few days like that. I eventually had a mechanic across the street come over and say dang that thing sounds real bad, he showed me how to pull the plug wires to find the cylinder it was on. He finds it and says…… Now jack it up off the motor mounts, pull the pan and put a new rod bearing in it. I was like really? He said, do I look like I am joking? So that is exactly what I did. I ran the dog piss out of that car for years after doing the repair like that, chirping 2nd gear everywhere I went! I ended up selling that Dart probably 2 years later and it still ran really good. :burnout:
 
Like anything,

It depends on the application.

In General, a Mopar Big Block {361, 383, 413, 426-Wedge and 440} have pretty
'square' Mains.

Before the 'ARP-Bolts', we used Hemi 'Main Bolts and Washers' for the Main Caps
and never experienced a problem.

I would say we machined the Mains on approximately 10% of the Mopar Big Blocks.

And we had both the Sunnen CH-100 Align Hone, and the Tobin-Arp Line Boring Machine.
 
Mad Dart said:
Interesting…. I have always had it done when building an engine with studs.

But I just may be calling BS on this line hone crap too! Just like my 600HP SBM block limit thread here…… http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=165579&highlight=600hp+limit

I have been smacking my 500+HP NA SB for a bit now with a 150 Shot. I will be creeping my way most likely into the 350+ Shot range here in the near future too. I will at some point find its limit….no worries I am already in the process of building the next one! Lol
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Yep-, and I have stock 360 Block based 408 INDY Head Stroker out there....well over 600hp N.A., and then spraying to 850hp....been going for 6 seasons now !
my point being...
But.... I don't advise it as "best practise", and IMO, nobody else should either ?
Yes, it was Align Honed.
 
I've align honed every build that has utilized a factory block. If It's studded, it gets honed with the studs. If It's bolted, it gets honed with the bolts. Same with the deck, and the final torque plate hone. Never had any problems.
 
Challenger340 said:
I have been Machining and building 440's for going on 40 years, I OWN an Align BORING jig, as well as an Align Honing Cabinet CH100 Sunnen.

Aside from anyone getting "lucky" as Mains are pretty forgiving....

I have never seen a Main Bearing Cap that does NOT distort beyond my comfort level....
when switching from stock Main Bolts @ 80 Ft/Lb Torque with stock BOLTS...
to
ARP Studs with 110 Ft/Lb Torque using ARP Moly
In my experience, They ALL DISTORT in the above scenario !

You think it's "OK" , by all means you screw it together.
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x2.
If you torque to factory specs and there was no interference with the holes in the caps - I highly doubt you'll see distortion. You're not loading the fastener to were it should be. They should go to 110lbs with the ARP lube. Do that and then see what they do...
 
moturbopar said:
I remember when I was younger, and had a lot more fun with cars, we used to throw stupid stuff together. We built a 307 chevy (I know LOL!) that was thrown together, stock cast pistons, double hump heads, 2.02 1.60 valves, home ported, We threw arp rod bolts in the stock rods, no machining, arp main bolts, again no machine work, and a comp 270h. I have no Idea how that engine held together, or even ran. was in a 65 cj5. with 4.27 gears and the stock 3spd trans. Thing was pretty dang quick, won a lot of street races (don't do it anymore!). That thing regularly hit 6500 rpm with a couple missed shifts hit 7000+! Anyways I grew up and learned better, But unfortunately, it costs me a lot more $$$ to build engine now. But for some reason I just have this urge to build a JY engine, on the cheap, say screw the rules lets see what happens!
Click to expand...
Hell it's only money(yours), I say do it!
 
Put blue on the bearings and bolt it together dry. Take the caps back off and look for shiny spots.
 
Mopar Big Block

Since this Block has extensive 'webbing', these Block Castings are extremely sturdy.

The Main Bearing bores have additional 'Lower and Mid' strength, and the sidewall
supports help prevent distortion.

It is a 'very rigid' Block {225 lbs. bare block}.

1/2" x 13 Main Bolts

We have never found any 'significant change' in the Main Bearing Size when using
Stock OEM Main Bolts, when using the 85 Foot/Pound Torque Specifications.

And, in applications where we used the slightly longer 426 Hemi Bolts @ 100 Foot/Pounds
of Torque, again there was no significant change.
 
If you check it with studs @ 110lbs & it's still in spec then, of course, you wouldn't need to hone it. But to say just toss 'em in & go is crazy, imo. Just stick with bolts then. Plenty of motors out there with main bolts.
 
You don't have to align bore the engine by switching to studs for the main caps. There is that channel/step in the caps and block that locate the main bearing cap perpendicular to the crank axis. That will not be affected by changing the bolts to studs.

 
Sorry but I'd go with ARP's recommendation on this subject. This is all they do. See bottom of first page of instructions for stud installation. Check the bore & know for sure. Every block is different.

[ame]http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/145-5603.pdf[/ame]
 
I wouldn't skip this step have it done. If you don't who knows yours might be the one that spins a bearing!
 
Clamping force is different from bolts to studs - Period.

Just because something runs does not make it right. Nor will it last as long as something correctly blueprinted to EXACT tolerances...


When I built my 430 I measured the differences at the mains and also at the deck with and without torque plates... the load on the block distorts it - this is a fact.
 
Like I said before and you guys keep debating this, if you are building an engine that you think needs studs, it's healthy enough that EVERYTHING should be checked, including (but not limited to) deck height/squareness, main bearing bores, etc....

I still remember the plaque I saw years ago with a bent and twisted con rod with a label below it that said, "Speed costs money, son. How fast do you want to go?"
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
Mopar Big Block

Since this Block has extensive 'webbing', these Block Castings are extremely sturdy.

The Main Bearing bores have additional 'Lower and Mid' strength, and the sidewall
supports help prevent distortion.

It is a 'very rigid' Block {225 lbs. bare block}.

1/2" x 13 Main Bolts

We have never found any 'significant change' in the Main Bearing Size when using
Stock OEM Main Bolts, when using the 85 Foot/Pound Torque Specifications.

And, in applications where we used the slightly longer 426 Hemi Bolts @ 100 Foot/Pounds
of Torque, again there was no significant change.
Click to expand...


Going by that theory there would never be signs of movement or metal transfer between the caps and the block and that's not the case in most big blocks that get abused. I'll add that movement isn't failure either but to me that's a point of potential failure. Block rigidity and registers have little to do with it. It's the caps that distort.
Just out of curiosity - How far do things have to change before a change becomes "significant"? Are you measuring the bore, or the bearing installed in the bore?
 
Moper,

Big Block Mopars

We measure the Main Bearing Bore Hole.

Checked with a 'Sunnen' Dial Bore Gage


Maximum 'Out-of-Roundness'

* General Rebuild Engines --- .0015" to .0020"
* Performance Engines ------- .0010" to .0015"
* Race and Marine ------------ .0010"
* Diesel ------------------------ .0010"
 
DJVCUDA said:
Clamping force is different from bolts to studs - Period.

Just because something runs does not make it right. Nor will it last as long as something correctly blueprinted to EXACT tolerances...


When I built my 430 I measured the differences at the mains and also at the deck with and without torque plates... the load on the block distorts it - this is a fact.
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
Clamping force is the same between bolts and studs. The difference is the force you put on the cap from either. Studs can exert a higher force because of the material they are made from and what their yield strength is. Secondly nothing is exact. Torque everything to specifications. If you measure the bores and they are within tolerance, the crush will keep them from spinning as long as you have a cushion of good clean oil. If your main bores are out of alignment, the crank will bind when you mock up and spin the crank. If not let her rip. Period... More important is to have your mains and Torque Plate, with the gasket you will use, torqued with the hardware and torque values you will use in final assembly when you bore and hone the cylinders.
 
Yep, fill ur boots and do whatever YOU think is right for the application !
And so EVERYBODY should.

We Dyno everything we build.... we have to... in the presence of the Customer, to their satisfaction, BEFORE it leaves, NO exceptions.
Far too much liability with 30-40K 800hp-900+ hp Competition Wedge & HEMI Engines not to ??
and we enjoy the "residuals" when they come back for freshening every few seasons after 250-350 runs still in one piece.
That said,
We target our Mains to be less than .0005" Straight & Round, Yes, even on Cast Iron Stock Blocks.... for "our" comfort zone.
Align Honing is one of the most difficult Machining Operations to do well.
 
We target our Mains to be less than .0005" Straight & Round said:
Challenger - This is not something that can be checked at home, correct? I have a dial bore gauge but there's no way to tell the alignment is correct. Reason I ask is my latest block is studded with a fresh line hone. Would certainly like to be able to tell if it was done properly.
Click to expand...
 
Challenger340 said:
... We target our Mains to be less than .0005" Straight & Round, Yes, even on Cast Iron Stock Blocks.... for "our" comfort zone.
Align Honing is one of the most difficult Machining Operations to do well.
Click to expand...

The main bore on a 383 is 2.8175 +.0005 -.0000. So .0005 is all you get on bearing bores typically to be in spec. This you can measure yourself, if you have a good feel, with a dial bore gage. The best way to check alignment at home is how I described it above. It is a good functional check. You can also put a dial indicator on the center main journal to check the straightness of the crank. I don't machine anything unless it is out of spec.
 
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