Manifold Vacuum Experiment

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That's what I wanted to see. I was not sure if there was a point somewhere during throttle operation that the two vacuum signals equalized....But it sound like it happens as soon as the throttle is cracked......Thanks for the reply.
You can see the point where ported vacuum starts (Door opens) with a single vacuum gauge hooked to the port on your engine in the shop or put your finger over the port and feel it. Don't take my word for it. Often I'm wrong and or intentionally mislead people.
 
You can see the point where ported vacuum starts (Door opens) with a single vacuum gauge hooked to the port on your engine in the shop or put your finger over the port and feel it. Don't take my word for it. Often I'm wrong and or intentionally mislead people.
No I believe you. I guess what I'm essentially saying is, it really doesn't matter because I cannot change "THAT". lol

I drove it some more today. Went all the way to the other side of the county to help a friend with an old Mercury with a Flathead in it. Cool car. The truck did much better with the original idle fuel restrictors back in it. Also still, no spark knock and I love how it has more balls at part throttle. Almost feels like something is helping push it down the road. Lastly as @Bewy pointed out, it does tend to run cooler. So I'd have to say this experiment was a success. Since I didn't get as specific with Vixan as I did Gladys, I'm going to revisit this same project with Vixen and see if I have a different outcome than last time. Her cam is MUCH lumpier than Gladys' is and I think she might benefit from this if I do it correctly. We'll see.
 
Bob,
Answering your question in post #19. There is no such thing as too much vacuum at idle. The vacuum will be what it is.

Post #21.
Get some non-Chebby friends.....
Right, because it's true for Chebby double-hump/triangle closed chamber heads, BTDT.
If You generate maximum manny vacuum with the timing, it will barely idle at an acceptable speed(high) & will run hot whether You like it or not. Didn't believe it Myself, working on a '66 Chevelle, but that's exactly what happens...total power timing was right on & no detonation but had to back the base timing down from 12° to 7° IIRC.
 
Some BS creeping into this thread, such as post #42.
[1] Engines need a LOT of timing at cruise because the mixture is throttled by the nearly closed t/blades; greater distance between air molecules, takes longer for COMPLETE burn. This timing can be anywhere from 45 to 60*. This is ONE function of vac adv, to provide this additional timing.
[2] WOT, when the mixture is very DENSE, needs much less timing. Hence the curve in the dist.
Try NOT using vac adv & running 60* at WOT & see what happens to your engine....

Vac adv is no more of an economy 'thing' than lowering the CR to stop detonation.
Vac adv is a tuning tool. It is alive & well in modern engines, albeit it is done electronically. The LS engines with their efficient chamber design only need about 27-28* at WOT. They idle with 22* BTDC [ not 4* ]. THIS IS STOCK FORM. Extrapolate the proportions to our old bangers that need 36-38* at WOT & you can see why these engines idle much better with more idle timing. And we haven't even talked about big cams yet with low vacuum......

img268.jpg
 
RRR,
Toilet started working good a couple of days ago.....
 
This whole thread doesn't make any sense.

You're running manifold vacuum to vacuum advance. In other words, you're forcing the timing to advance at idle and low end, but it's also advanced all the time at the low end. So then you're readjusting the distributor timing at idle?

Vacuum advance is an economy measure, nothing more. At WOT, the vacuum drops, the timing retards. At cruise, vacuum is high, so vacuum advance kicks in advance to insure full burn of a relative low volume of air/fuel.

Hooking up vacuum advance to manifold vacuum is adding in advance, but it's doing it at a point in load/RPM where you should be altering springs on the advance weights, or dialing in the distributor twist.

Adjusting the screw in the vacuum cannister only adjusts the rate of vacuum advance, not the total amount (the analog when using manifold vacuum goes right back to when you should be altering the springs). So when you improperly use tuning vacuum advance settings to improve low end performance (via manifold vacuum), you're going to lose economy and increase ring wear due to fuel wash at cruise, because you're using the vacuum advance in place of properly tuning the distributor and not when it's supposed to be used.

NONE of this talks about the actual vacuum stop limits in the advance canister. If you don't know this number from your canister, then someone elses' experience with tuning using manifold vacuum is potentially very different from yours.

Ping Pong covers the base of this, but the magazine articles were much more in depth.

TLDR: If you're seeing improvements in low end performance by going to manifold vacuum, that means you need tune your timing in the distributor, not use the vacuum advance as a crutch.
Although I did readjust the timing with the advance can hooked to manifold vacuum, guess what? It ended right back in the same place as with ported vacuum, 20 degrees BTDC. With the full manifold vacuum on the can, I have 40 degrees BTDC. Remove and block the hose at the vacuum can and 20 degrees BTDC, just like before.

Yall are shootin the messenger here. All I'm doing is making a modification and recording it here. I cannot help the outcome. It is what it is. All I'm doing is reporting on that outcome.

And the old adage "vacuum advance is not a performance part" is simply not true. It most certainly can be, if used in the correct manner. Might wanna read this article. Although my numbers differ from the engine in the article (due I am sure to my engine's low compression), the results are basically the same, with the exception that their can only added 10 crank degrees, while mine adds 20. Tons of articles all over the internet that debunk the myth that vacuum advance is only an emissions part.

 
Some BS creeping into this thread, such as post #42.
[1] Engines need a LOT of timing at cruise because the mixture is throttled by the nearly closed t/blades; greater distance between air molecules, takes longer for COMPLETE burn. This timing can be anywhere from 45 to 60*. This is ONE function of vac adv, to provide this additional timing.
[2] WOT, when the mixture is very DENSE, needs much less timing. Hence the curve in the dist.
Try NOT using vac adv & running 60* at WOT & see what happens to your engine....

Vac adv is no more of an economy 'thing' than lowering the CR to stop detonation.
Vac adv is a tuning tool. It is alive & well in modern engines, albeit it is done electronically. The LS engines with their efficient chamber design only need about 27-28* at WOT. They idle with 22* BTDC [ not 4* ]. THIS IS STOCK FORM. Extrapolate the proportions to our old bangers that need 36-38* at WOT & you can see why these engines idle much better with more idle timing. And we haven't even talked about big cams yet with low vacuum......

View attachment 1716204469
You think I can read that? Dork. lol No, wait.....ya tosser. LOL
 
Anyone got any good sources for low vac canisters that add ~20deg or so?
I bought an accel one because the manual showed a graph with a low all-in vacuum, but when I tested it with a hand pump, the all in is like 16" and I'm looking for 7-10".
The low vac corvette one everyone used to use on bullet distributors are NLA, as far as my searching has yielded. Got skunked on ebay too.
 
Anyone got any good sources for low vac canisters that add ~20deg or so?
I bought an accel one because the manual showed a graph with a low all-in vacuum, but when I tested it with a hand pump, the all in is like 16" and I'm looking for 7-10".
The low vac corvette one everyone used to use on bullet distributors are NLA, as far as my searching has yielded. Got skunked on ebay too.
Now I have the GM HEI big cap style distributor in my Ford 400. This is the advance can I just put on it. It pulls in right AT 20 degrees at idle with the screw turned all the way CW.

They also carry Summit brand advance cans for small and big block Chrysler. I would "assume" ( I know, dangerous) that they would also pull in around 20 degrees. I would think with Summit's great customer service, that you could return it if it did not meet your needs.

Small block:

Big block:
 
Oh and my engine only pulls around 7hg at idle. With the can adjusted all the way clockwise, I get the full 20 degrees.
 
Oh and my engine only pulls around 7hg at idle. With the can adjusted all the way clockwise, I get the full 20 degrees.

I'm running a gm points style "billet" dist in an FE motor. Looks like they offer a point style can, but it's listed as a replacement part for what I have which only adds 5-7 Deg according to the manual. Set full tight I seek to remember getting 10 and the all in wasn't quite low enough to get all of it at idle.
I spent $50 on the damn accel can, another $20 for the summit one couldn't hurt! Thanks!
 
Modify the dizzy housing to add an adjustable stop and run any Vac can you want.
Any time the Vac can diaphragm fails you have a vacuum leak.

dist mod 002.JPG
 
The point about load and rpm is this.

We adjust for load mechanically, by opening the throttle plates ourselves. Spark control is a response to that, not an input.

What happens to vacuum when throttle opening happens? It drops. That's why it's called vacuum advance, because it advances when there's vacuum.

If you want advance on the bottom end, and you have vacuum, when you're transitioning from low rpm and load you can either use a vacuum advance can.... Or use advance weights or turn the distributor.

If you want retard during low end acceleration, you can use the vacuum advance.... or twist the distributors or use spring control to bring in the advance at low rpm.

If you want spark advance during wot, you're an idiot.

I'm not saying you can't use a vacuum advance to do these things. I'm saying, If y'all are using the advance mechanism to redundantly do those things, then it's not being tuned for when it works best: low load, moderate rpm situations. If you're opening the throttle, the vacuum is dropping and advance is too, so you're not gaining anything other than a starting point anyway.

But here's the biggest point: when does 'manifold vacuum' differ from 'ported vacuum'?
Basically, at idle and just barely off it. After that, they're basically the same. Any vacuum advance games you're playing are already happening once you're past the just-off-idle point. You're wasting your time.
Manifold and ported vacuum exists for systems that were designed to use it. Hooking up a Chrysler vacuum advance system to it makes no difference after the throttle plates crack open a slight amount. I challenge ANY of you to show me a difference in power/torque curves on a dyno. It's all in your heads.

Besides, I'm using this post to prove the point: do you really want to take advice from a user that can't figure out the quote functions?
:poke:
 
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If you want advance during wot, you're an idiot.
I'm probably guilty of this myself, but it would make it easier for me to understand your post if when you write about advance you could add the word vacuum, manifold, ported or mechanical in front of advance. That way we are on the same page.
 
I'm probably guilty of this myself, but it would make it easier for me to understand your post if when you write about advance you could add the word vacuum, manifold, ported or mechanical in front of advance. That way we are on the same page.
Fixed. Spark advance, regardless of means.
It's still advanced before TDC, but retarded to the limits in the system.
 
I didn't read through every post but your findings don't surprise me RRR. When I was young (the 80's) and working on a lot of low compression, no quench, bad chamber engines I found most of them ran better when the vac adv was hooked to manifold vacuum. When I was tuning my 408 (10 to 1, good chamber design and .040 quench) it didn't like full manifold vacuum. My belief is the inefficient designs burn the charge slow so they need all the help they can get
 
Post #64 might be able to do quotes....but does not understand ign requirements.
And the idiotic statements.
Smoother idle as a result of MVA might not show up on a dyno curve, but the engine can sure feel the difference....& so can the driver.
And it is not just me that that gives advice on MVA [ maybe they do not do quotes either ], but people much smarter than the the poster of post #64.
Maybe this will count as a quote; [ Yes, I know already posted, but not read by post #64 ]

img268.jpg
 
And this. You could only achieve this without electronic control by using MVA

img307.jpg
 
Hay yall, all I'm doing is posting what I did and what the outcome was. If yall don't like that, just scroll on by, because I'm not arguing, I'm not debating. All I'm doing is reporting on findings. Wanna argue it up? Please start your own thread. That's not what this is for. Thanks.

So, last night, I decided to revisit Vixen and try this experiment on her. So first thing I did was get the timing light out and verify where I had the timing set, even though I already knew. Or so I thought.

Looking at the balancer with the light. I saw no mark on the balancer. Then, just before I took the light off, here comes the mark rotating around counter clockwise as the engine was idling. lol So I reached over and goosed it a little. The outer ring on the balancer almost came off the front of the balancer hub. So I yanked the radiator and fan and pulled the balancer. When I just LAID it on the work table, the inertia ring just FELL off. LOL How in the world it didn't fly off is anybody's guess and there's no telling how long it's been like that.

So I found out two things. I need another balancer and I don't have one, and I need an adjustable vacuum advance for a slant 6. Do any of yall know if somebody makes one? S I'm on the hunt for a balancer and an adjustable vacuum advance that I'm not sure exists. lol
 
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