Maximum Performance N/A 383 build. Input wanted from engine gurus.

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67charger383 said:
Think I can get away with just a set of ARP rod bolts?

Don't really want to change the main bolts as the bottom end is already assembled unless it is absolutely necessary.
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Well that's up to you, if you want to trust those rods, arp will be your best option for bolts.
Have to be mindful of torque specs though as more torque on the bolts will require a little resizing the rod.
If you were to change to main studs you would need the block line honed also.
Since it's put together run it like that but you will want to be mindful of excessive cap walk.
 
67charger383 said:
I getcha. I already have a blown RB based 452 in my pro street car that makes roughly 900hp.

Trying something different. The basis of this build really is the rotating assembly and the block.
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I have the same idea myself in building a stock stroke (400) but same principle, just make something radical that isn't the norm nowadays with all the kits available
 
MOPARMAGA said:
Well that's up to you, if you want to trust those rods, arp will be your best option for bolts.
Have to be mindful of torque specs though as more torque on the bolts will require a little resizing the rod.
If you were to change to main studs you would need the block line honed also.
Since it's put together run it like that but you will want to be mindful of excessive cap walk
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MOPARMAGA said:
I have the same idea myself in building a stock stroke (400) but same principle, just make something radical that isn't the norm nowadays with all the kits available
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Yeah I was really intrigued when I read in a old Mopar book from the 70's about a build pretty similar to what I am trying to accomplish, but it had no information on head flow data, valvetrain, or any of the voodoo. Back then they ran a .654 DC Mini Express mushroom cam.

I initially was going to run a RB STX-22 (320 duration .590/.590 lift) but I realized I mistakenly bought a Hemi cam core, and I would have been leaving power on the table if I spent $600+ on getting the same spec cam ground for a B/RB
 
67charger383 said:
Yeah I was really intrigued when I read in a old Mopar book from the 70's about a build pretty similar to what I am trying to accomplish, but it had no information on head flow data, valvetrain, or any of the voodoo. Back then they ran a .654 DC Mini Express mushroom cam.

I initially was going to run a RB STX-22 (320 duration .590/.590 lift) but I realized I mistakenly bought a Hemi cam core, and I would have been leaving power on the table if I spent $600+ on getting the same spec cam ground for a B/RB
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They could have been running max wedge heads ???
I wouldn't mind having one of those old mushroom lifter camshafts.
I think I recall the thread, oops
 
You have picked the worst engine out of all the big blocks to power a heavy car; the 383/400 has the highest rod/stroke ratio of ALL the BBs, 1.88.

Far better to go with a stroker crank & use 383 rods [ H beams ].
The warning below about too much duration causing slower ETs applies to 383s as well as 440s.

img282.jpg
 
TRW pistons require a ridiculous amount of clearance due to the expansion rate and are boat anchors in weight compared to modern piston offerings.

Modern pistons allow for much tighter clearances and will provide a better ring package.

If you want a 13 to 1 engine in that cubic inch size you're going to need a custom set of pistons that will run in the $2000 range to get a dome large enough.

Also I would plan on using a girdle and buy an all aftermarket rotating assembly if you plan to spin it 7500 RPMs all the time.

Tom
 
Bewy said:
You have picked the worst engine out of all the big blocks to power a heavy car; the 383/400 has the highest rod/stroke ratio of ALL the BBs, 1.88.

Far better to go with a stroker crank & use 383 rods [ H beams ].
The warning below about too much duration causing slower ETs applies to 383s as well as 440s.

View attachment 1716264840
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yeah, well the car is a factory 383 car so I think it's pretty novel to have the original block, trans, and rear end housing in a racecar and make decent times.

It's not like I'm trying to go class racing or anything, I'd be tickled if it ran in the high 9's/low 10's with a shot of nitrous, and 11s N/A
 
If you get peak torque around 1.3 lbs-ft per cid = 505 lbs-ft x 90% for roughly the torque at peak hp = 455 lbs-ft, 600 hp x 5252 / 455 tq = 6926 rpms. If you can get efficiency higher like 1.4tq:cid 600 hp = 6431 rpms less efficient obviously higher rpms.

Heads 290-300 cfm can obviously make 600 hp but I'd be more comfortable trying to get 600 hp out of 320+ cfm heads.
 
67charger383 said:
yeah, well the car is a factory 383 car so I think it's pretty novel to have the original block, trans, and rear end housing in a racecar and make decent times.

It's not like I'm trying to go class racing or anything, I'd be tickled if it ran in the high 9's/low 10's with a shot of nitrous, and 11s N/A
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that OG block might not be around for long if you're slangin' them TRW anvils 'round with stock rods north of 100+ times a second.

the better ring packages on lighter, modern pistons can be worth a tidy bit horsepower, too.
 
67charger383 said:
For the engine gurus:

My current project to build a maximum performance B block 383 with the goal of using a stock block. Money isn't really an object but I want to keep it to mostly not one off parts.

Engine Specs:

0 deck 30 over 383 block
forged rods and crank
TRW L2293 Dome Pistons
Super Damper
Fully race prepped 452 heads with near max wedge size intake ports
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Mechanical Roller Cam
Lunati Mech Roller Lifters
Milodon Gear Drive
Milodon External Oil System
Fabbed aluminum oil pan with a crank scraper
Ported Weiand 2x4 Tunnel Ram
2x Holley 750 Double pumpers
Hooker Super Comp Headers
Accel BEI II Ignition



Car Specs:

67 Charger body
4000lbs with driver
Fully built 727 (kevlar clutches, RMVB, deep pan)
Turbo Action 5000 stall converter
8-3/4 Sure Grip with 4.11 Yukon gears
28' Tall tire


Yes I know it is a heavy car with small cubes. The goal is to go the fastest with an all steel 67 charger body with an Iron 383 block and stock stroke N/A.

Well anyways, I called up a few cam companies today to spec a custom grind mech roller, and they all told me to make the heavy car with small cubes combo work I would need to be turning 7500-8000rpm. I was then told that I really should get Trickflow 240 heads, H beam rods, and more modern lighter dome pistons. They told me that the TRWs are too heavy to run that type of RPM, Is that true? I know alot of SS guys ran them back in the day... I was also told that I could make the combo of Iron heads and TRWs work if they flowed around 290-300cfm. The cam specs I heard from multiple sources were: 280/280@50 680 Lift 110 LSA

So I have a few questions for any engine gurus here:

Can I turn 7500+ Rpms with the TRW Slugs? I already have the full rotating assembly balanced and blueprinted.
If so can I run them with TF 240 heads, or would there be piston-valve clearance issues?
Is it possible that the worked iron heads flow around the 280-300cfm range? I have big $$$ into them but for the price of getting them on a flow bench it wouldn't be worth it. I was quoted $500 to flow test them.
I will most likely go for the TF 240 heads.
Any recommendations for a modern lighter dome piston that would put the compression at roughly 13-1?

What needs to be done to prep the block to handle these high RPMs?

Can forged stock rods and stock hardware handle 7500? or am I stuck with having to get H beams and full ARP hardware?

I would appreciate any input or further recommendations.
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Respectfully, I think a lot of potential responders are avoiding a reply because your words and goals are in contradiction. Maximum performance, money no object, production heads yet to be done, poor quality pistons, stock rods. etc...With all that said can you make about 525 at a reasonable cost using most the items you listed prepped at a reasonable level. Do you have the chassis and driveline capable to efficiently use the 750HP you'll need? 8 3/4 rear? You'd be WAY ahead using some good heads and a smaller cam. As has been mentioned the cam would be real tricky using stock heads. There's a SHARP transmission guy out of Canada name "Hutch", if you google him you'll see his combo which is kinda cool/unique similar to what you're considering. I'd suggest you can use that to conceptualize. All this said a turbo would fix a lot of potential issues.
 
Instead of max performance which to me is 9500 rpm 900 hp plus engine, put the 600 hp goal in the title instead.
 
Bewy said:
You have picked the worst engine out of all the big blocks to power a heavy car; the 383/400 has the highest rod/stroke ratio of ALL the BBs, 1.88.

Far better to go with a stroker crank & use 383 rods [ H beams ].
The warning below about too much duration causing slower ETs applies to 383s as well as 440s.

View attachment 1716264840
Click to expand...
Too much duration causes slower et IF you just added a bigger cam and didn't do anything else to accommodate the additional duration.
Would be the same story with cylinder heads, put a bigger cylinder head on an engine without changing anything else to make it work it's best will definitely slow a car down.
Everything has to work together
 
Not a guru or expert by any means.

Car weighs a ton. Only one thing is going to move it off the line. Torque. I’d say lots of changes need made to this combo to make it work properly. Most of which everyone already touched on. If it were me and the money isn’t an issue. I’d start over.

Build a bigger engine (451, 472, 499, 505, 511, take your pick) 440 source has some nice rotating assemblies at a very reasonable cost that is already balanced and ready to go. Or you can’t beat a set of molnar crank and rods and get a shelf piston or custom one made

Trick flow heads, painted to look stock appearing
Single plane trick flow intake
Custom carb
Different Cam that is designed to make more torque to move that boat off the line over a cam that will make more power down track with increased engine RPM

2.74 low gear set in the 727 with a 4.88 (depending the tire size) because the car is gonna need all the help it can get off the line. my uncles 71 roadrunner uses a 4.88 with a 2.74 and 31x13 tire. Works great.

No way in hell I’d be spinning stock rods (ARP bolts or not) that high especially with the heavier piston. Asking for trouble. Not when ones like Molnar are available at an affordable price. Take advantage of the low deck engine with the piston being lighter over an RB.

Sean is correct. Hutch up in Canada runs a 383 engine in his kick *** 69 roadrunner. Car is not 4,000lbs but he still spins it pretty high to get it to run how he wants.

Just my 2 cents.
 
If I read it correctly, the heads are done and short block assembled. All I have to add, from what I have heard 280 cfm out of a stock casting is probably achievable. People don’t realize that B/RB heads were like a step kid in the “let’s improve it” idea. The pinnacle head was the hemi, why sink development dollars into the B/RB heads. Those heads fit the bill for the intended purpose. No reason to make the casting better so it can, what compete with the hemi? So it languished developmentally. My X head almost flows the same, ALMOST. The heads in this combo are far down on my “worry” list. Three things are being put together that shouldn’t be. Old rotating technology and small CI’s and a heavy car. Don’t get me wrong. I run in a class that requires outside the box thinking, but you should know that outside the box is where money goes to die.
 
ValiantS said:
Do you have the chassis and driveline capable to efficiently use the 750HP you'll need? 8 3/4 rear?
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If you intend to just run 600 HP in a 4000# car and plan to dead hook it on a race track you had better forget the 8-3/4" rearend with 30-spline axles and get a Dana 60 with some

35-spline axles. You can do it now or when you get tired of replacing 8-3/4" centers and axles. It will happen.

Tom
 
furrystump said:
If I read it correctly, the heads are done and short block assembled. All I have to add, from what I have heard 280 cfm out of a stock casting is probably achievable. People don’t realize that B/RB heads were like a step kid in the “let’s improve it” idea. The pinnacle head was the hemi, why sink development dollars into the B/RB heads. Those heads fit the bill for the intended purpose. No reason to make the casting better so it can, what compete with the hemi? So it languished developmentally. My X head almost flows the same, ALMOST. The heads in this combo are far down on my “worry” list. Three things are being put together that shouldn’t be. Old rotating technology and small CI’s and a heavy car. Don’t get me wrong. I run in a class that requires outside the box thinking, but you should know that outside the box is where money goes to die.
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That's a great point you said about wedge development vs HEMI. Since Chrysler had already developed the max wedge heads and found the hemi was just better but it could have been pretty cool if the max wedge lasted longer.
But competition against their own legend would have probably not been smart
 
If most of us were in the conference room when they were taking about each engine. We would be like “there is some serious low hanging fruit with the B/RB heads. I would like to purpose a new casting” and the bean counters would laugh and say “why? If the customer wants more performance? Tell them to buy a Hemi!”, (us) but you don’t understand!!!!!! The 383 could be SO much better!!! (Bean counter) we don’t CARE. We need economy of scale with this stupid/costly HEMI you guys asked for! Get out of our meeting!!! Security!!!!! :):):)
 
“Max performance” doesn’t really coincide with stock rods, trw pistons, and ported factory heads.

Maybe it did at one time, but not anymore.

If the you’re intent on using that stuff, just cam accordingly and put it together.
And then “iiwii”.
 
if I were determined to run the 383 block, I would be stroking it and running at least a set of trick flow 240's. that would get you a better lighter piston, some needed extra cubes and lighten things up some
 
Thanks for the input y'all.

Looks like I am going to roll with what I have for now and spec a cam accordingly.

I will definitely look into building a big low deck stroker in the future, but since I already have an assembled short block and heads, I'm going to reevaluate my goals and build accordingly.

A 496 stroker with good modern heads and technology seems to be in my future, but I'll see what I can get away with now and see what numbers it puts down.
 
Get in touch with Jones Cams in Denver N.C. 704-489-2449, he will grind you the cam that you need. You will not be disappointed, Dave @ Woodruff Carbs is building a similar motor but he sprung for some lighter pistons. I will never by a cam off the shelf @ Summit ever again ! Good luck
 
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