Metal in oil
- Thread starter Fittrjoe
- Start date
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Scody21
Just send it
Stop drinking all that ginger ale you old fart….
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Stop drinking all that ginger ale you old fart….
The wife says that too. I tell her don’t temp me or I’ll get out the whiskey. I haven’t had that in almost 35 years but if she triggers me I’ll do it.
She’s never seen me drink but she’s heard enough stories to know that ain’t good lol.
I formulated automotive engine oils for Chevron for 18 years so I know a thing or three about oils.
Engine oils are complicated mixtures of dispersants, detergents, antiwear additives, antioxidants, friction modifiers, antifoam agents and sometimes other components. Getting the formulation out of balance by adding supplements to the oil can lead to problems and will definitely void the engine oil producers' warranty that the oil will not cause engine damage (a very common claim of essentially all major oil brands).
ZnDTP (Zinc, ZDDP, and other names) is a sacrificial antiwear additive. It works by bonding with metal asperities at highly loaded surfaces (e.g., camshaft and lifter) forming a Iron-Sulfur-Phosphorus surface that very gradually wears away and is replaced by more Fe-S-P surface. This mechanism prevents what is termed spot-welding wear where asperities micro-weld to each other pulling material from the surface leading to catastrophic failure.
From Wiki, but there are other sources describing what is going on.
The oil is formulated to minimize this micro-welding wear using engine tests that scientifically measure wear in standard tests (and they are incredibly severe standard tests). For slider follower camshafts, about 12 millimoles of P (a measure of the number of Phosphorus molecules) of the right type of ZDDP (yes, there are different types that work in different applications).
The point is, more of a good thing may be too much of a good thing. So adding a supplemental ZDDP to an oil that has the right amount already may actually increase wear or deposits defeating the purpose entirely.
I would recommend using a top brand oil that is formulated for older cars (there are many available from Valvoline and so many others) and changing the oil at no more than 3,000 miles.
I ran taxicab testing on very old API SF oil (meeting late 1970's specifications) in NYC Taxi Cab Testing at 3,000 mile drain intervals. At 100,000 miles of the worst type imaginable (NYC Taxi's), this oil outperformed much more modern formulas, including Mobil 1 and other synthetics, in all aspects of performance. Sludge, Varnish, cylinder wear, cam wear, were all better with the shorter drain interval compared to using the "Best" oil at longer drain interval. This proved that oil drain intervals and using an OK oil will protect your engine better than using a high-quality oil but not changing it as frequently.
Sorry for the long post, but there is a lot of science here that debunks many advertising claims from especially oil supplement producers.
Engine oils are complicated mixtures of dispersants, detergents, antiwear additives, antioxidants, friction modifiers, antifoam agents and sometimes other components. Getting the formulation out of balance by adding supplements to the oil can lead to problems and will definitely void the engine oil producers' warranty that the oil will not cause engine damage (a very common claim of essentially all major oil brands).
ZnDTP (Zinc, ZDDP, and other names) is a sacrificial antiwear additive. It works by bonding with metal asperities at highly loaded surfaces (e.g., camshaft and lifter) forming a Iron-Sulfur-Phosphorus surface that very gradually wears away and is replaced by more Fe-S-P surface. This mechanism prevents what is termed spot-welding wear where asperities micro-weld to each other pulling material from the surface leading to catastrophic failure.
From Wiki, but there are other sources describing what is going on.
The oil is formulated to minimize this micro-welding wear using engine tests that scientifically measure wear in standard tests (and they are incredibly severe standard tests). For slider follower camshafts, about 12 millimoles of P (a measure of the number of Phosphorus molecules) of the right type of ZDDP (yes, there are different types that work in different applications).
The point is, more of a good thing may be too much of a good thing. So adding a supplemental ZDDP to an oil that has the right amount already may actually increase wear or deposits defeating the purpose entirely.
I would recommend using a top brand oil that is formulated for older cars (there are many available from Valvoline and so many others) and changing the oil at no more than 3,000 miles.
I ran taxicab testing on very old API SF oil (meeting late 1970's specifications) in NYC Taxi Cab Testing at 3,000 mile drain intervals. At 100,000 miles of the worst type imaginable (NYC Taxi's), this oil outperformed much more modern formulas, including Mobil 1 and other synthetics, in all aspects of performance. Sludge, Varnish, cylinder wear, cam wear, were all better with the shorter drain interval compared to using the "Best" oil at longer drain interval. This proved that oil drain intervals and using an OK oil will protect your engine better than using a high-quality oil but not changing it as frequently.
Sorry for the long post, but there is a lot of science here that debunks many advertising claims from especially oil supplement producers.
NITROTRIP
Well-Known Member
Looking at the first drivers side pictures the rocker arms, 4 left-4 right might not be in
the correct place. 1 looks like it is off to one side of the valve tip. The intake rocker
pushrod pocket should be offset away from the intake port pair. Same with the exaust.
Wrong location with the stamped rockers is the #1 assembly screw up I have found
over the years. They will run but it is not right, or the factory would not have 8 lefts
and 8 rights. Someone with a better eye or a better direct down picture might help
him check. 17,000 miles if they are wrong need a new set. On this engine the stamped
rockers are way better than cheap rollers, just say'in.
PS: wrong location causes more ware. Magnet dust?
Rick
the correct place. 1 looks like it is off to one side of the valve tip. The intake rocker
pushrod pocket should be offset away from the intake port pair. Same with the exaust.
Wrong location with the stamped rockers is the #1 assembly screw up I have found
over the years. They will run but it is not right, or the factory would not have 8 lefts
and 8 rights. Someone with a better eye or a better direct down picture might help
him check. 17,000 miles if they are wrong need a new set. On this engine the stamped
rockers are way better than cheap rollers, just say'in.
PS: wrong location causes more ware. Magnet dust?
Rick
Outstanding car! What is the paint color?
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Don’t mind at all
good read thanks !
Swinger 340
Well-Known Member
I run two 340 motors in my toys. One was built in 87' the other in 89'. When I change the oil, I always have that gray slime on the drain plugs. Maybe not as much as yours, but it is there, 35 years. I think the motor is still in the break in phase or you may be getting a little moisture in the oil from not heating the motor up on short drives.
Hi Rick
Better pics of drivers side
Unfortunately I closed up passenger side today
So you’re saying my rockers are the stamped type and they’re good?
Hope these pics help you see what you’re looking for
AND I hope like hell they’re not installed wrong
Engine is a Crate motor from TRISTAR and they’re pretty reputable… but hey they’re also human
Close up photos are both ends and then the middles
Thanks for any insight
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Great looking car after break in with the right oil I cHANGE TO VALVOLINE 10W-30 SYNTHETIC RACING OILchange it every year, about 7000 mile never drive the car short drives always over 2 hours so shi gets burnt off and no water in the exhaust system . never had a problem with wear have torn down engine aftr 20,000 miles almost no wear looks new , short drives kill an engine
NITROTRIP
Well-Known Member
First off I screwed up in my post, I'm sorry. Big blocks use the left/right offset, LA small blocks
use center line rockers. So you are good there. Rusty was spot on for you in his post with the shafts
and push rod hole clearance. I checked 3 ways to get this right. Factory 69dart shop manual, Direct
Connection bible, and new old stock Crane ductile iron rocker extra set I have for my 340. The Crane
set are all centered. If you look at the whole head picture it looks like left/right push rod pockets all
mixed up, but the pair pictures are all centered correct. Your golden there.
I closed my shop 14yrs ago. I did prototype testing for Cat and Cummins in 2 brands of snowcats
for the 4 company's. And built all kinds of engines to fill the gaps.
To me your engine inside looks like 170miles not 17,000. Very clean. In this vintage engine your
paper towel dust is normal for a 20+ micron oil filter, that almost all are. The only 10 micron I can
think of might be K&N if they still are. Magnetic drain plugs and rifle bore scopes scare the crap out
of people. A lot of heavy equipment and industrial have magnetic plugs and is about normal collection
what you see. My 440 in my truck has a 2 gallon pan with a mag plug and 180,000 miles in the last
32yrs. Every change looks like yours, still runs great and burns no oil pulling trailers in the mountains.
If it was my engine I would enjoy it for the next 30yrs.
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