Morell Hydraulic Roller Lifters

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Bodyperson

Bodyperson

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I have a 340 in the machine shop. They have a set of retro fit Morell hydraulic roller lifters that someone backed out on. They are fixing to return them.
My plan was to reuse a good hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifters from a different block. The machinist is a little skeptical on me re-using them. He said no way on a chebbie but maybe on the Mopar. I have a set of new Promaxx heads set up for... a flat tappet cam. I'm thinking I can get these roller lifters for 500 bucks. My question to the masses is this.
If I buy these lifters, can I run the springs on the Promaxx heads that I ordered for a flat tappet cam on a mild roller cam? I'm thinking 22O or so @ .050. Half inch lift.
Hydraulic Flat Tappet .575 max lift
Closed ………………….. 115 lbs. @ 1.800”
Open ……………………. 310 lbs. @ 1.225”
 
You need more seat tension with the roller lifters, I would suggest 130-150 lb for a cam of that size.
Might be able to use current springs by shimming, need to check for coil bind.
 
Bewy said:
You need more seat tension with the roller lifters, I would suggest 130-150 lb for a cam of that size.
Might be able to use current springs by shimming, need to check for coil bind.
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Thanks. Valve springs seem to be a drop in a bucket at this point. I was also looking for some input concerning reusing a cam and lifters from a different engine. The lifters from both engines look pristine though the block I am using had a wiped cam. It had a lot of miles on it. Understandable.
 
For 500 clams, I'd get some solid rollers and go solid.
 
Id like to reuse the cam I have. I think I'll roll the dice on it.
 
As long as the lifters were kept in order and are reinstalled on their original lobes, you should be fine. Just treat it like a new cam during break in.
 
Professor Fate said:
As long as the lifters were kept in order and are reinstalled on their original lobes, you should be fine. Just treat it like a new cam during break in.
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I did do that Professor. Good call on the break in. Thankyou.
 
This only applies to flat tappet cams. If you are going to use a used cam & lifters in another block, the lifters should be re-faced....
 
Bewy said:
This only applies to flat tappet cams. If you are going to use a used cam & lifters in another block, the lifters should be re-faced....
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Not what I wanted to hear but I appreciate the feed back.
 
I have no idea about the reality, but solid roller camshafts seem to be billet and require a specialized oil pump drive gear. Either bronze or melonized. Many say bronze is race only stuff, melonized is the way to go but hard to find lately?
No experience, just one of the things that's kept me from planning a solid roller build and I'm curious what others think.
 
just to clear this up
I think Bewy was saying if its flat tappet you need to reface lifters
if its roller thats a moot point.
You can't reface a roller...
all you can do is make sure it sees the same lobe and the same pushrod

and i can only confirm what i was told when i looked into roller cams

I was told I needed special drive for oil pump/dizzy due to the hardness of the cam material.

i was also told that regardless of the length of the lifter and its oil band position i should probably sleeve the bores, to help control oil and to make sure that the oil band on the lifter could never be exposed at bore top or bottom

BUT my motor is an odd Australian 6 not an V8

so that may be irrelevant here

how good a fit is a retro fit lifter in a bore for a flat tappet lifter, that has a massive window into the oil gallery ...dunno..never got that far. i.e do you need the oil control tube rammed down the gallery from one end, referenced in a number of small block performance build books from DC in the 1990s


Dave
 
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Bewy said:
This only applies to flat tappet cams. If you are going to use a used cam & lifters in another block, the lifters should be re-faced....
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Even if the cam a lifters see the same lobe? If so, would you expound as to why the lifters should be refaced.
 
Bodyperson said:
Even if the cam a lifters see the same lobe? If so, would you expound as to why the lifters should be refaced.
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If you can match the old lifters with the same lobes then they don't need to be refaced. I did this on a 360, reused a Lunati HFT cam and lifters I had been running in a 318 and they were fine. I put 35k miles on that 360 and the lifters and lobes still looked fine when I had to tear it down due to busting a ring land. That cam and lifter set probably had 50k miles in total being run in 2 different engines and it was a modern Voodoo grind to boot, not exactly slow ramps...
 
FT cam only. Repeating what I said in post #9. Lifters that are used with FT cams develop a wear pattern. When new, the lifter face is convex & the lobe has a taper front to rear [ or rear to front ] depending on where the lifter is positioned in that engine. After enough miles, the convex lifter has worn, such that it could be flat or could even have a slight hollow in it.
Moving those parts to another block that has the lifter bores at a slightly different angle or front/rear location in the block [ machining tolerances ] can result in the lifters no longer spinning in their bores [ lifter/lobe failure soon after ] because the built-up wear pattern is no longer there. Using re-faced lifters ensures that the lifters will rotate to distribute the wear.

The above is based on the assumption that the lobes/lifters in question are still in reasonable condition.
 
Bewy said:
FT cam only. Repeating what I said in post #9. Lifters that are used with FT cams develop a wear pattern. When new, the lifter face is convex & the lobe has a taper front to rear [ or rear to front ] depending on where the lifter is positioned in that engine. After enough miles, the convex lifter has worn, such that it could be flat or could even have a slight hollow in it.
Moving those parts to another block that has the lifter bores at a slightly different angle or front/rear location in the block [ machining tolerances ] can result in the lifters no longer spinning in their bores [ lifter/lobe failure soon after ] because the built-up wear pattern is no longer there. Using re-faced lifters ensures that the lifters will rotate to distribute the wear.

The above is based on the assumption that the lobes/lifters in question are still in reasonable condition.
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It is possible to check for lifter rotation before the engine is run. Install the cam, timing set and one bank of lifters without break-in lube (just with some light oil), rotate the block so the lifters are vertical and mark them temporarily with a paint pen or marker. Rotate the engine by hand and watch the lifters to make sure they turn as the lobes push on them, repeat the process for the other bank. Could also install them all at once along with the rest of the valvetrain and use light checking valve springs so the hydraulic plungers don't compress.
 
MopaR&D said:
It is possible to check for lifter rotation before the engine is run. Install the cam, timing set and one bank of lifters without break-in lube (just with some light oil), rotate the block so the lifters are vertical and mark them temporarily with a paint pen or marker. Rotate the engine by hand and watch the lifters to make sure they turn as the lobes push on them, repeat the process for the other bank. Could also install them all at once along with the rest of the valvetrain and use light checking valve springs so the hydraulic plungers don't compress.
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Just because the lifter rotates doesn’t mean the cam won’t go flat.

See post 15. He explained it very well. If the lifter bank angle is off a bit, if one lifter bore is off front to rear or something like that, the lifter may rotate but if you have made the contact area very small. The cam/lifter will fail.

For the cost of resurfacing a set of lifters it makes no sense to try and use a used cam and lifters.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Just because the lifter rotates doesn’t mean the cam won’t go flat.

See post 15. He explained it very well. If the lifter bank angle is off a bit, if one lifter bore is off front to rear or something like that, the lifter may rotate but if you have made the contact area very small. The cam/lifter will fail.

For the cost of resurfacing a set of lifters it makes no sense to try and use a used cam and lifters.
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From my understanding the contact area is minimal regardless due to the angle of the lobes and convex shape of the lifter face, although I guess I can see how the wear pattern locations would be changed with differences in lifter bore angles and such which I feel a "re-break-in" of the cam and lifters would solve.

I understand all the nitty-gritty theory but in reality, how many here from experience have reused a known good set of lifters and cam in a different block with the lifters kept in proper order and actually had them fail? Sure, it's only one example but I did it myself and didn't even bother to re-break-in the setup and had zero issues. From everything I've seen and read so far it's been a pretty standard practice and I've never heard of an actual failure if it's done properly. All the failures I've been hearing about lately are due to new FT lifters being machined poorly from the manufacturer.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Schneider cams. They use a third party guy to do it. He uses a CBN cutter on his machine and the finish and shape are impeccable.
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Thanks! I actually called them a short time ago and apparently the guy they used quit doing them so they don't offer that service anymore. It's a bummer. Apparently the hylift johnson lifters are adequate though and shouldn't require any type of surface correction.
 
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mopowers said:
Thanks! I actually called them a short time ago and apparently the guy they used quit doing them so they're don't offer that service anymore. It's a bummer. Apparently the hylift johnson lifters are adequate though and shouldn't require any type of surface correction.
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Well that sucks because that guy was good. I may have his phone number written down somewhere. If I can find it I wI’ll call him and see if he will still do them going around Schneider.
 
There is a handful of them out there. Just takes an internet search. The best are all of them.
 
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