*Need help on how to wire up a switch panel*

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64physhy

64physhy

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I'm trying to wire up a switch panel in my Duster with a master switch and start switch (along with fuel pump, water pump, and fan switches), but I'm running into a problem. I've got them wired and the start switch works to turn over the motor, but I'm not getting anything to the ignition system to keep it running.

Here's how I have it wired (all wire colors are the ones to the stock ign switch):
Red in to Master switch, then out to start button
Yellow and brown to other side of start button
Black not hooked to anything

I had the blue one to the out side of the master switch because the way I read the schematics, it looks like it supplies power for ignition, not the starter, but when I had it hooked up, it would crank when I flipped on the master switch.

I've gone over the schematics several times, and can't figure out why having the blue one coming off the master switch makes it crank. According to the schematic, the blue wire eventually supplies power to the brown wire on the coil.

Where am I going wrong?

Thanks,
Dave
 
You have a couple of things wrong, if I understand your wiring

The brown and yellow, and blue, these are all the factory colors?

Brown and yellow MUST NOT be interconnected. Brown goes to the coil+ side of the ballast, or to coil + if the ballast is bypassed

This brown (originally) is hot ONLY in start, and supplies "hot battery" for the ignition during crank. It is also known as "IGN 2"

Yellow goes to your starter relay, and the key supplies power to it also only in "start."

When you hook them together, and the engine is running, you create a feedback situation where the voltage at the coil will attempt to feed back to the start relay. If this is a stick car with a neutral safety switch, this will happen with the clutch pedal down. On an auto car, this will happen in park or neutral, and on older stick cars, all the time the car is running. This will either hold the starter engaged, or will deteriorate the spark voltage

The reason it won't run is you don't have power on the blue igniton wire, which (originally) feeds the instruments, the ignition, and alternator field and the regulator.

If you only have a one pole switch for start, there are a couple of ways around the brown/ blue problem.

One way is to buy a great big diode, probably 10A 25V or more, and install it in series with the lead to the start relay The diode is marked either with an arrow or a band on one end. -->]-- means the same thing as -----]-- Current flows neg/ pos left to right in these diagrams, so you want the band end to the start relay, and the opposite end towards your start switch

A second way is to buy a later model start relay used on Jeeps which has an extra set of contacts. Hook it up just like you would the old one, and run the terminal marked "BAL" over to coil positive, leaving the original brown wire unhooked

StarterRelay.jpg


Still a third way would be to buy a separate Bosch relay, and use the start button to energize the Bosch relay AND your starter relay, and use the contacts in the Bosch relay to replace the brown bypass circuit

So far as the blue, I don't know what switch is what, but you need that hooked up for "run."

To TAKE THIS ONE MORE STEP, however, I would NOT depend on the factory bulkhead wiring. I would seriously consider looking over the "Mad Electrical" stuff:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

especially this:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

if you have not done so.

Consider replacing your brown/ blue/ yellow wiring by cutting out the connectors, using larger gauge wire, and simply running the wire right through the bulkhead connector.
 
Thank you for the response.

Ok. The way it looks in the wiring schematic I have is that the blue goes to the instruments, etc, but also to the firewall connector, and then from there, a brown wire goes to the coil.

The brown looks like it goes to the neutral safety switch, so since it's hooked with the yellow wire, is only getting power when the starter button is pressed. The way I have it hooked up, the brown is hot only on start (same with yellow).

I have thought of just bypassing the factory wiring, but not sure if I'd have any better luck. I'm ok with wiring, but not much more than that.

I have a Ford starter relay mounted in the trunk because I moved the battery and put in a master shut off switch, so the starting system is already altered. How does this change things?

The battery relocation with the Ford relay has been done for a while, and has worked good with no problems with the regular ignition key; it's not something new.
 
Maybe I'll consider that Jeep relay. Looks like the easiest solution. Could I run the red to the Batt terminal on the relay, then a wire from the BAL terminal to the coil and call it a day?
 
Here's how my Ford relay is hooked up.
 

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64physhy said:
schematic I have is that the blue goes to the instruments, etc, but also to the firewall connector, and then from there, a brown wire goes to the coil.

The brown looks like it goes to the neutral safety switch, so since it's hooked with the yellow wire, is only getting power when the starter button is pressed. The way I have it hooked up, the brown is hot only on start (same with yellow)..
Click to expand...

The above is not correct for factory

The blue run comes from the key, supplies instruments, goes through the bulkhead, and to the regulator and ignition "run" that is, key side of the ballast

Yellow comes from key "start" through bulkhead goes ONLY to one of push connectors of start relay

Brown comes from key "start" SEPARATE, through bulkhead, to coil + side of ballast

The "other brown"?? coming UP from NSS from trans does NOT go through bulkhead, but goes to other push on terminal of start relay

IF YOU tie the yellow start and the brown which goes to coil/ ballast together, the ignition run voltage will feed back to the tie point, back on the yellow to the start relay, and if you are in park or neutral, with put a LOAD on the ignition system. If you run with "no ballast" it will engage the starter. You MUST separate those two circuits

64physhy said:
I have a Ford starter relay mounted in the trunk because I moved the battery and put in a master shut off switch, so the starting system is already altered. How does this change things?.
Click to expand...

I don't see that this wiring should have an impact



64physhy said:
Maybe I'll consider that Jeep relay. Looks like the easiest solution. Could I run the red to the Batt terminal on the relay, then a wire from the BAL terminal to the coil and call it a day?
Click to expand...

If you run this relay, here's how things would go:

Run the yellow from your start button to the push on marked I

Run your NSS switch to the push on marked G

Hook the big stud up just as your old one was, use it for a junction

Hook the center marked EGR/ SOL to the same wire that went to the starter solenoid on the old relay. You'll have to change the connector to a push on type

The "BAL" one in the corner goes to the + side of the coil.

Red? Is this the power feed to the new switch panel? If so, yes, goes to the stud. I'd put a fuse link in there, or a big fuse, depending on how much "else" you have hooked to the panel.
 
I just tried that relay, and no joy. I must be overlooking something. I'll try again in a couple days when I can work on it for a while in the daylight.
 
Just realized, I never hooked the blue wire up. That's probably the problem. Should it go to the master switch? I hooked the wires up to the new relay the way you said, and left the original brown wire from the ignition switch unhooked, with a new wire from BAL terminal to the + side of the coil.
 
You want the blue on whatever switch you are using for "engine run." (Without a photo and diagram of the panel, I'm just guessing)

You say you replaced the brown. If you mean the brown coming from the ballast, through the bulkhead, and HAD been going to the igntion switch, that should be the same. Be sure you tape it off if one end is connected.
 
The engine run switch is the one I mean, and the brown one I replaced was the one that was going to the ignition switch. I just have a wire going straight from the new relay to the coil. Should it be going through the ballast?
 
It SOUNDS like you are fine. The orginal bypass brown, went directly from the ignition switch, through the bulkhead, to the COIL side of the ballast. In other words, the brown bypass went (electrically) to the coil+ So if you hooked a wire from the newer start relay pictured to the coil+ you should be good.

You can confirm that by taking the brown off the start relay, cranking the engine, and checking that the terminal marked "BAL" is hot during cranking. Once again, you'll have to check that with the wire disconnected, otherwise, you'll get a feedback situation.
 
I got it all wired up with the new relay. It cranks and fires up for a second, but doesn't stay running, like the ignition stops when the start button is released. Normally, the car starts right up before I messed with the wiring.

I don't have the black wire from the stock ignition switch hooked to anything, and my Haynes manual seems to be missing a page of the schematic. Is the black one supposed to be hooked up somewhere? I assumed it was a ground, but now I'm thinking maybe not.
 
I'm thinking maybe I need to run the brown wire through the ignition ballast resistor so the coil gets power from the alternator once it's running. Either that, or the problem has to do with the MSD E-Curve distributor I'm using and the way it's wired. In all the wiring changes going on, maybe it's not getting power anymore. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Thank you so much for all the help so far. I thought this would be easy and straight forward when I began, until you set me straight on hooking the brown and yellow wires together.
 
If it fires on the starter and dies, it is probably not getting "run" voltage. That is, it is firing on the bypass circuit (brown wire) feeding the ignition during start, and losing voltage for some reason when you release the starter.

Again, with this modification, I'm guessing. You should be able to put your switch in "run" with the engine off, and check for voltage at the regulator and ignition.
 
I think it just hit me. With the MSD, there is a black and a red wire from the distributor to the coil (+ and -). I'm sure that the wire I have it hooked to that goes in to the distributor power ( and supplies ignition after start) was hooked to a wire that went to the run position on the original switch (but not hooked up now), so I'll check that out tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with that.
 
Finally got it going. It didn't turn out to be any of the things I thought it was. I was just running the new wire from the relay terminal BAL to the coil at first. I tried running it through the ballast, and that didn't work, so then I decided to keep the original brown wire hooked up to the coil and run the one from BAL. After hours of going over the diagrams, I realized that the alternator supplies power to that brown coil wire after initial start, so decided to give it a shot, and it worked.

Thanks for all your help 67Dart273, it's people like you who make this forum great!
 
64physhy said:
I realized that the alternator supplies power to that brown coil wire after initial start, so decided to give it a shot, and it worked.

Thanks for all your help 67Dart273, it's people like you who make this forum great!
Click to expand...

Not having seen the diagrams I'm still guessing, but that is not true. It should continue to run on the battery, IE you should be able to unhook the alternator --either electrically or unhook the belt, and the engine should start and run.
 
67Dart273 gave you great info.

I just rewired my 65's engine and dash harnesses, so can add some mostly correct answers.

The black wire to the ignition switch is the "accessory feed output". You don't need that if you are supplying accessory power elsewhere with a switch.

If you have a strong electronic ignition, like MSD, I don't know that you require the brown wire to the ballast resistor. I didn't bother to wire it thru my bulkhead since I plan eventually to eliminate the ballast w/ HEI or LS1 coils (Crane XR700 currently). That wire bypasses the ballast resistor, feeding +12V direct to the coil+ (downstream side of ballast) only when the starter is cranking. That is why you can get it from the 87 Jeep starter relay. That was effectively what you were doing by connecting your brown and yellow wires together. I always wondered why Mopar didn't just wire the brown to the starter relay output. Maybe because the starter coil can give a kickback voltage that might hurt the ignition system. The Jeep's relay probably uses separate contacts for that.
 
It's not getting anything directly from the battery to that wire. Maybe because of the solenoid I'm using with the battery relocated to the trunk. With the kill switch on (engine off), the only power going to the front of the car is to the original starter relay. The wire from the Alt to the Batt is also hot then. With engine running, the only power under the hood is the hot wire to the relay and whatever comes from the Alt, so I'l pretty sure it's running off the alternator. As long as it runs, I'm ok, whether it's from the battery or the alternator
 
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