No start, fresh rebuild, help anyone?

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Heck I'm right down I-696 if you get totally stump.

A compression test would show if the timing chain is off one tooth, just check one cylinder, if its 80 lbs or so, it might be it..if its 130 lbs or more, I doubt that is the problem.

Are you sure the wires are in the right order , its that and or the timing off..unless you got a bunch of open valves but non adjustable valves trains are hard to mess up

I would triple check that the wires are going to the right cylinders and the timing is right on..if so, start checking the compression before removing the timing cover
 
waggin said:
the common misconception that the distributor can be just stuck in ther any old way and it will run properly... if the rotor is in between two terminals on the distributor cap then you are one tooth off and no matter where you turn the distributor too it will NOT run properly...it will run but not properly, been thru this issue with a member or two that stand by there guns claiming I'm wrong you decide by checking just the way was stated here....check that intermidiate shaft and bushing first....good Luck to you grasshopper :)
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Sorry buddy, but you ARE wrong on this issue. ANY engine that does not suffer from "odd/ even" fire such as V6's and some industrial 4 bangers will run just fine NO MATTER where the dist or imtermediate gear is. All you need is enough swing on the distributor body/ vacuum advance to adjust the timing.

I DO AGREE that he needs to check the intermediate shaft for "bent" and check the shaft bushing.
 
"The thing" about timing traditional V8 engines. This does NOT apply to some V6s (even/odd fire) and some 4 bangers.

"The book" shows how to insert the intermediate shaft, that is the drive gear/ oil pump drive, and if done properly, everything comes out "OK"

THE REASON it is originally done that way is

so the assembly line folk can wrench, repeat

so the plug wires "lay" nice

so the tune up guys "see" what they expect.

The TRUTH is you can close your eyes and drop the drive gear in ANYPLACE, plug the distributor in "any" old way, and and then bring the timing marks up on no1 ready to fire, and plug the no1 wire in wherever the rotor points, and it will run just fine.

If the vacuum can is off interfering with something, you can simply turn it where you want, bring no1 up to fire, and plug the no1 wire into where the rotor is pointing.

HERE IS the steps to setting up an engine dist.

1---It is important to realize, that when the cam timing marks are set "by the book" that is cam at 6 o'clock, crank at 12 o' clock, this is NOT no1 ready to fire, but rather no6 ready to fire.

So you either have to plug in the dist. pointing to no6, or rotate the engine 1 turn

2---After the cam is timed, with the timing marks on TDC, the "book" shows how to insert the intermediate shaft. if yours is incorrect and you want to correct it, you can simply use a large screwdriver and "walk" the gear up out of the helix and move it whichever way it needs

The gear on a small block should have the slot pointing nearly straight inline with the crank, just a tad to the driver side pointing at the front most manifold bolt

A B/RB gear the slot should be essentially inline with the crank

3---With this in place, now bring up the no1 cylinder ready to fire NOT on TDC but rather WHERE you want initial timing to be. There are two ways to do that

A---If either valve cover is off, bring the timing marks up to where you want initial time, IE 10BTC or so for a bone stocker, 15-20 for a "cam" or maybe even a little more for a real hot cam
Look at either the no1 or no6 valves. Whichever set of valves is CLOSED indicates which cylinder is ready to fire. If no 6 are closed, you can either plug the dist. in with rotor pointing to rear (no6) or rotate the crank one turn, and plug the dist in for no1 (rotor pointing forward)

B---If the valve covers are on, pull the no1 plug, stick your finger in the hole, and bump the engine around. When you START to feel compression, watch the timing marks, and bring them up to initial time, IE 10-12 BTC

Now plug the dist. in, rotor pointing forward, and put the vacuum can approximately where it should be.

I always mark the dist. upper rim directly under the no1 tower so I don't have to argue with teh cap.

Rotate the dist RETARD (cw for small block, ccw for B/RB) to "get the slack" out of the drive, then slowly ease the housing back advanced until

the points open if you are using points

or until the reluctor tip is centered in the pickup coil core.

This procedure should get you close enough that the engine will start and run with no fuss. Then of course just take your timing light and adjust from there

An aside.

I'm a HUGE believer in checking actual TDC with a piston stop, which you can make or buy

cca-4795.jpg


Small block intermediate shaft below. The slot lines up with the front left intake manifold bolt. You can walk the gear up and around with a screwdriver

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B, RB, 426 hemi:

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One more reason I dislike vacuum advance, the can gets in the way and prevents the dist from being turn much.

But sometimes you have to work with what you got
 
67Dart273 said:
Actually MOST American V8's are this way. That is, with the "by the book" marks IE the cam at 6 o'clock, and the crank mark at 12 o'clock, no6 is ready to fire.
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Yep....

67Dart273 said:
Sorry buddy, but you ARE wrong on this issue. ANY engine that does not suffer from "odd/ even" fire such as V6's and some industrial 4 bangers will run just fine NO MATTER where the dist or imtermediate gear is. All you need is enough swing on the distributor body/ vacuum advance to adjust the timing.
Click to expand...

Yep....

I'm still worried about how much, no fire, cranking has gone on? Might be at a point where you should pull a valve cover and try to go thru a passage and shoot some more assembly lube at the cam?
 
Heck or pull the rocker shafts out and remove each lifter through the head and wipe some more moly lube on each lifter.

What cam is in there, if its the old 340 stock cam well that is a mild lift cam but its its some newer high lift grind it needs the moly lube and its getting all wiped off the more you crank it over.
 
I still say check on the distributor shaft bsuhing for play or if it was ever replaced after a tanking.
 
so do you agree that at top dead center the points should be just starting to open? and if you put the distributor cap in place the rotor button should point to the terminal on the distributor cap? If Yes is your answer then I have stated something that is true.....and if when the points are just starting to open and you place the distributor cap on and find the rotor to be pointing in between two terminals what could cause it to be out of phase knowing that the distributor shaft is not twisted...then again why would I say something like that on a public forum if it were not true???...that would be stupid..I have heard your arguement from several people who know far more than me and yet I was able to remidy the issue they had ...i don't need to prove me right.....you need to see what I'm talking about for yourself on your own time due to your need for more knowledge....knowledge is power in am engine...maybe you are incorrect???
67Dart273 said:
Sorry buddy, but you ARE wrong on this issue. ANY engine that does not suffer from "odd/ even" fire such as V6's and some industrial 4 bangers will run just fine NO MATTER where the dist or imtermediate gear is. All you need is enough swing on the distributor body/ vacuum advance to adjust the timing.

I DO AGREE that he needs to check the intermediate shaft for "bent" and check the shaft bushing.
Click to expand...
 
Mopar small blocks have 18 teeth on the intermediate shaft.... thats an even number to start. You cant end up between terminals...let alone the reluctor and rotor can not clock any different from each other since they are fixed and non adjustable..just line up the no.1 terminal and fire it.

CHEVY has the odd number of teeth...which is where the "1 tooth off" comes from, the rotor ends up ahead or behind by the end of 1 revolution.

The only time you can end up between terminals and have spark scatter/misfire is if you were unlucky enough to have ended up with one of the early electronic distributors from the '99-2000's time frame, they were machined wrong so that no matter where you stabbed the distributor...the rotor was out of phase with the caps terminals.

So waggin is wrong
 
the factory states to point the rotor at the front bolt just as a reference/starting point and really just so that there is enough room for the vac canister to allow timing changes without it hitting the firewall/coil.
 
going back to your first post, you mention that the TQ was rebuilt. It is not flooding the engine as you say there is fuel at the base of the intake. There should be no fuel coming out of the carb during cranking. The only wet fuel should come from the accellerator pump. Check that the X-ring seals are in the base of the phenolic fuel bowl where the fuel pick up for the main cluster is. These are commonly forgotten or they get off center during carb assembly. If they are missing or not installed properly, there will be a massive fuel leak and the car will not run.

Previous posts discussed setting the timing correctly prior to starting the engine. You can check timing mark accuracy using the piston stop method. Make a piston stop from a used spark plug (follow Mopar Action instructions or google it) Make sure the timing mark is correct. Rotate the engine so that #1 piston is in the compression stroke. Rotate until the mark is at ~5° BTDC (10° would work as well). Make sure that the rotor is pointing at #1 spark plug, and it should be pointed towards the front of the engine aligned with essentially the #1 cylinder (Check FSM for exact alignment). Rotate the Dist against the normal rotation direction to keep tension on the shaft. With the ignition on, you should hear a spark from the distributor when the reluctor passes the pickup in the distrobutor. This should allow the timing to be set close enough to start the engine.

Make sure that the dist hold down is tight. The dist should not move at all with the hold down bolted in place.

If there is no fuel leaking from the carb, the engine should start immediatly. Maybe have starting fluid handy. It is important for cam break-in to get the engine started within one rotation if at all possible. You may want to pull out the oil pump drive and use a 3/8 hex rod to prelube the engine to be sure you have oil pressure immediatly as well.

This doesn't cover cam timing errors, that will take a more detailed discussion to address.

Best of luck, and pray for the cam lobes!

Bob
 
waggin said:
so do you agree that at top dead center the points should be just starting to open?
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"Mostly correct" actually you don't want the points (or reluctor trigger) to happen at TDC, but rather where it is that you want the initial timing, IE 10-15* BTC,


waggin said:
...and if when the points are just starting to open and you place the distributor cap on and find the rotor to be pointing in between two terminals what could cause it to be out of phase knowing that the distributor shaft is not twisted..?
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Look I'm not making fun, here. You are simply incorrect

You can NOT change the relationship of the points and rotor (if you have points) because the points opening point (the points cam in the distributor) and the rotor are MECHANICALLY connected to the same piece of the distributor. It has nothing to do with anything below that, not the distributor shaft, and not the intermediate shaft. Even if the intermediate shaft was twisted, this only drives the oil pump which doesn't care about timing.

The electronic distributors can be out of phase if you install the reluctor incorrectly (that's what the arrow is for, to set up CCW or CW operation, and that DOES change rotor phasing.) Or if the pickup coil has been reversed or otherwise manufactured wrong. That is, when the trigger is generated, the pulse is "upside down" thus changing the time of the pulse. This is a concern for those of us using GM HEI conversions. I have A GM module on my Toyota powered Cletrac, and got it wrong on the first fireup. It did not take me long to figure this out. On my Dart, I had researched online diagrams of "those who came before" and already knew how to hook up the Mopar pickup to properly obtain phase to the GM module.



Any other rotor phase problems are due to a mechanical deformity such as an improperly made cap/ rotor (Chineseo) or wear and slop in the vacuum advance plate/ mechanism. You cannot simply change rotor phase. There is nothing to move, or adjust that will easily change it. The rotor is keyed to the shaft, THAT cannot be changed, and the cap is keyed to the dist. body, so that cannot be easily changed.

I think you'd better understand that I'm an old guy. I ran these cars when ALL YOU COULD GET was a breaker point distributor. I was only about 22 years old when I learned the "finger in no1" trick
 
after reading all this perfectly put information and if the O.poster has not got it running yet, I would sure check the plugs by now for gas fowl... even if he has it right now these plugs has had a bunch of gas thrown at them and washing the rings.
Has he rechecked compression again yet or put a little oil in the cylinders ?
I am no great tec but I have walked in to a shop because I was called and it was a 302 small block that would not fire, yes it was a new engine all closed up and set awhile
I pulled each plug did the straw half full of oil and replaced the plugs and it turned maybe 3 rotations and Bang it fired up........ they have gave up and tried starting the engine all night and called me the next morning... True story , so it is possible the plugs are fowled and the rings and cylinders are begging for oil.
 
I guess in my spare time i will have to make a video to show what I am sharing about the rotor being out of phase....not a problem and memike is right on with addin some oil to the cylinders ,i use transmission fluid but same effect, when I assemble an engine I clock the rings then add oil to the cylinders and dip the pistons in oil before installing them
 
waggin said:
I guess in my spare time i will have to make a video to show what I am sharing about the rotor being out of phase....not a problem and memike is right on with addin some oil to the cylinders ,i use transmission fluid but same effect, when I assemble an engine I clock the rings then add oil to the cylinders and dip the pistons in oil before installing them
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Thank you Wagg's, I was not sure if he seen my post I put in here yesterday.
 
just saying for getting an engine ready to run before actually cranking it you can get it real close by setting the distributor in and getting the points almost ready to open and checking the phase of the rotor is a good idea then set the firing order from there and your good to go. in 31 years of playing with almost all mopars I have seen this happen several times where they were out of phase and I check when using parts new to me to avoid the problems created by this, I could care less if anyone thinks i am incorrect the main thing is to look for yourselves and save countless hours scratching your head when one does not run correct ie: really hard to start laboring the starter when you set the timing for performance or lazy timing when you have it set to start easily...thats the point...when you get one that acts that way is when you need to check or even better whenever you put one together...along with filling lifters with oil and oiling the rings and cylinder walls when assembling an engine are good practices to learn
67Dart273 said:
"Mostly correct" actually you don't want the points (or reluctor trigger) to happen at TDC, but rather where it is that you want the initial timing, IE 10-15* BTC,




Look I'm not making fun, here. You are simply incorrect

You can NOT change the relationship of the points and rotor (if you have points) because the points opening point (the points cam in the distributor) and the rotor are MECHANICALLY connected to the same piece of the distributor. It has nothing to do with anything below that, not the distributor shaft, and not the intermediate shaft. Even if the intermediate shaft was twisted, this only drives the oil pump which doesn't care about timing.

The electronic distributors can be out of phase if you install the reluctor incorrectly (that's what the arrow is for, to set up CCW or CW operation, and that DOES change rotor phasing.) Or if the pickup coil has been reversed or otherwise manufactured wrong. That is, when the trigger is generated, the pulse is "upside down" thus changing the time of the pulse. This is a concern for those of us using GM HEI conversions. I have A GM module on my Toyota powered Cletrac, and got it wrong on the first fireup. It did not take me long to figure this out. On my Dart, I had researched online diagrams of "those who came before" and already knew how to hook up the Mopar pickup to properly obtain phase to the GM module.



Any other rotor phase problems are due to a mechanical deformity such as an improperly made cap/ rotor (Chineseo) or wear and slop in the vacuum advance plate/ mechanism. You cannot simply change rotor phase. There is nothing to move, or adjust that will easily change it. The rotor is keyed to the shaft, THAT cannot be changed, and the cap is keyed to the dist. body, so that cannot be easily changed.

I think you'd better understand that I'm an old guy. I ran these cars when ALL YOU COULD GET was a breaker point distributor. I was only about 22 years old when I learned the "finger in no1" trick
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didn't post to get in an arguement reason for my post was for him to look and make sure everything was in jive before cranking and running all the cam lube off the new camshaft and lifters before he can get the engine to run at speed and break in the camshaft...after that he can play all he wants for now he needs her to fire and get that break in done wouldnt you agree?
1wild&crazyguy said:
the factory states to point the rotor at the front bolt just as a reference/starting point and really just so that there is enough room for the vac canister to allow timing changes without it hitting the firewall/coil.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry been out working on drywall all day at a friends house... Thanks for all the replies. I am going to start going through everyone's advice.

The bearing should have been replaced, everything was done at the machine shop. I will check the shaft to make sure it is straight. I did soak the lifters in oil and made sure they were good and lubricated. I did run the oil pump to build pressure, maybe should do again after all this cranking, because everything is brand new inside... Don't want to kill my cam already...

I believe I lined everything up correctly on the timing chain, but that was at least 6 months ago. I need to do a compression test, that will probably tell me. A little oil may help.

On my first attempts at starting I did get a fireball out the carb. But I have not had that the last few try's not sure if that is bad or not..... This week I should have more time. I am going to call my mopar buddy over again and troubleshoot again.

Being my first build I have been a bit nervous on breaking something, hopefully I haven't caused any major damage, guess that's how you learn... I just want to hear that 340 run!!
 
waggin said:
didn't post to get in an arguement reason for my post was for him to look and make sure everything was in jive before cranking and running all the cam lube off the new camshaft and lifters before he can get the engine to run at speed and break in the camshaft...after that he can play all he wants for now he needs her to fire and get that break in done wouldnt you agree?
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Yeah I agree with that part.
On the other hand...a lot of people don't realize that lube is wiped and flung off in one revolution..lol...and not to confuse, yes lube and or film is very important, but its the splash and lifter bores lubin the sucka when its running. Just a thought.
 
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