O2 Sensor on a Carb Engine Question

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Newbomb Turk said:
Whatever makes you feel better but you’ll never convince me that more data is bad. I mean, that’s an ignorant statement.
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The data needs to be viewed from the correct perspective to be useful. Simply believing an 02 tells you the truth about what's happening is false.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Yeah yeah, I've heard that before;
I think you completely missed the point,
We had nearly a hundred years of carbs and never an AFR to tune them, the guy doing the tuning was the AFR man.
Besides
The statement you are concerned about was the lead-in to the fat-lady joke.
If I have to explain everything, there are not enough hours in the day.
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Newbomb Turk said:
Whatever makes you feel better but you’ll never convince me that more data is bad. I mean, that’s an ignorant statement.

You don’t have to live and die by it, but it’s best virtue is it cuts my tuning time by half or more.

So not knowing what the AFR is and not using an O2 meter you lose knowledge and waste time.

I don’t care what you say or don’t say to your wife, but I appreciate humor for sure.
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I totally get where AJ is coming from, and have to agree with him, even though or maybe because I run an afr full time.
I can also totally relate to the fat Wife analogy unfortunately. :D

I sometimes watch a channel called Fort9 about motorcycles.
He had a whole table of riding accessories, from cameras, intercom’s, phone mounts and such.
He wiped it all off on the floor and said “You don’t need any of this ****, just go have fun and don’t ruin your ride screwing with accessories”
I really liked and agreed with that statement.

Same with cars, but I think knowing what you are doing when the car needs something is a big part of enjoying it.
Some of us can tune an engine darn near perfect without the afr, just by ear, feel and plug readings.
Some can’t, or are not confident, or knowledgeable enough to do that.

The fun comes from going for a good blast in a car you can trust and fix anywhere and any time it’s needed with nothing more than your ear and experience.

Point here is that for an afr to do a person one bit of good you need to know what it’s telling you and why.
Seems to me that once that is known, you are already past needing it.
It’s just there for the curiosity of it at that point.

Thoughts?

As a matter of fact it’s overcast here now with a cool breeze and not 100 degrees like they said, and I think I’m going to take a rip up the mountain into pine trees and national forest. :D
It’s perfect all windows down with a toke and good rock and roll driving weather.
And I’m leaving all my cameras and wireles microphones at home.
A nice gentle buzz, the music and the Flowmaster 40’s baby.

Later
 
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TrailBeast said:
I totally get where AJ is coming from, and have to agree with him, even though or maybe because I run an afr full time.
I can also totally relate to the fat Wife analogy unfortunately. :D

I sometimes watch a channel called Fort9 about motorcycles.
He had a whole table of riding accessories, from cameras, intercom’s, phone mounts and such.
He wiped it all off on the floor and said “You don’t need any of this ****, just go have fun and don’t ruin your ride screwing with accessories”
I really liked and agreed with that statement.

Same with cars, but I think knowing what you are doing when the car needs something is a big part of enjoying it.
Some of us can tune an engine darn near perfect without the afr, just by ear, feel and plug readings.
Some can’t, or are not confident, or knowledgeable enough to do that.

The fun comes from going for a good blast in a car you can trust and fix anywhere and any time it’s needed with nothing more than your ear and experience.

Point here is that for an afr to do a person one bit of good you need to know what it’s telling you and why.
Seems to me that once that is known, you are already past needing it.
It’s just there for the curiosity of it at that point.

Thoughts?

As a matter of fact it’s overcast here now with a cool breeze and not 100 degrees like they said, and I think I’m going to take a rip up the mountain into pine trees and national forest. :D
It’s perfect all windows down with a toke and good rock and roll driving weather.
And I’m leaving all my cameras and wireles microphones at home.
A nice gentle buzz, the music and the Flowmaster 40’s baby.

Later
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I get what you are saying TB. And what AJ is saying, because as you both know (I don’t say that to insult your intelligence or AJ’s but as a fact that I know you both know what I’m about to say so it’s old hat to you guys) to use an AFR meter and understand what data it’s giving takes time to learn.

I get some guys don’t really care to learn. I’m ok with that until they start complaining their carb doesn’t run right. Then either pay someone to fix it that you trust or, learn yourself.

I always see on the side of FABO members are not stupid and that most of them want to learn to tune better. Or drive better. Or shift better.

I know my driving skills are in the crapper right now from lack of practice. I will soon be hitting it again and I’ll have to teach my dumb self how to drive again.

That’s kinda the same thing.

I get why AJ (and you) don’t want to bother with one, and that’s ok. Trust me when I say I’ll probably never do EFI not because I can’t do it and tune it, but because I absolutely HATE all that wiring and ****. Just hate it.

Am I actively looking at an MSD Digital 7 box so I can start learning individual cylinder timing and such. I know there is power in individual cylinder timing.

Would I expect AJ to do it? Nope. And probably 99% of the people doing this hobby wouldn’t even be close to needing or wanting an ignition like that.

But for the 1% (I shouldn’t be talking in “absolutes” because some guys get offended…not on this forum but others) we want to keep learning.

And then the customer ends up with a better end product because I learned how and what to do.

That’s where I come from.

Plus, I know how much time AJ spends massaging his stuff. He gets it dialed in. He isn’t getting paid to tune his stuff so any extra time it takes him to tune it doesn’t matter.

I like to keep my tuning time as little as possible.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I get what you are saying TB. And what AJ is saying, because as you both know (I don’t say that to insult your intelligence or AJ’s but as a fact that I know you both know what I’m about to say so it’s old hat to you guys) to use an AFR meter and understand what data it’s giving takes time to learn.

I get some guys don’t really care to learn. I’m ok with that until they start complaining their carb doesn’t run right. Then either pay someone to fix it that you trust or, learn yourself.

I always see on the side of FABO members are not stupid and that most of them want to learn to tune better. Or drive better. Or shift better.

I know my driving skills are in the crapper right now from lack of practice. I will soon be hitting it again and I’ll have to teach my dumb self how to drive again.

That’s kinda the same thing.

I get why AJ (and you) don’t want to bother with one, and that’s ok. Trust me when I say I’ll probably never do EFI not because I can’t do it and tune it, but because I absolutely HATE all that wiring and ****. Just hate it.

Am I actively looking at an MSD Digital 7 box so I can start learning individual cylinder timing and such. I know there is power in individual cylinder timing.

Would I expect AJ to do it? Nope. And probably 99% of the people doing this hobby wouldn’t even be close to needing or wanting an ignition like that.

But for the 1% (I shouldn’t be talking in “absolutes” because some guys get offended…not on this forum but others) we want to keep learning.

And then the customer ends up with a better end product because I learned how and what to do.

That’s where I come from.

Plus, I know how much time AJ spends massaging his stuff. He gets it dialed in. He isn’t getting paid to tune his stuff so any extra time it takes him to tune it doesn’t matter.

I like to keep my tuning time as little as possible.
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Absolutely agree with all your points septin for one.
Tuning is fun too. :D

Tell ya what, I just got back from that drive and the car ran, drove and handled really well on that road.
I might know one or maybe two people that wouldn’t have been scared to ride with me.
I did take my phone and did a couple of short recordings and a few pics I’m going to throw together for a quick video.

Btw, I don’t generally get offended by truth or conversation just so you know for future reference. :D
 
AJ/FormS said:
I agree. I had one.
it lied. then the gauge quit working.
I got a complete replacement set, under warranty.
it too lied. then the gauge quit working.
I threw it on the wall of shame, and have never missed it and my plugs were replaced 22 years later with about 110,000 miles on them, NOT because they needed to be changed, but because I thought the car was sold, and so I gave it a tune-up. Buyer backed out.
My AFR may not be perfect, but by the plugs, I doubt an AFR could do better., Plus, you know, the car has, with one size smaller cam, and a lil more cylinder pressure, gotten UNBELIEVABLE (to some of the smartest guys here on FABO), fuel economy.

IMO;
RPM/Load/AFR/ and Ignition Timing, all go hand in hand. If you cannot change the timing on the fly, Nor change the AFR on the fly, as is the case with a carburetor; what's the point of monitoring the AFR?
I mean, that's like watching your wife gain weight, and thinking you can talk to her about it. If yur stupid enough to try, as I was, stand well back, and be prepared to rough it for a week or a lifetime.
Just let her/it, be, Cuz just like my wife goes around complaining about how fat she is, that AFR will do the same.
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Newbomb Turk said:
I get what you are saying TB. And what AJ is saying, because as you both know (I don’t say that to insult your intelligence or AJ’s but as a fact that I know you both know what I’m about to say so it’s old hat to you guys) to use an AFR meter and understand what data it’s giving takes time to learn.

I get some guys don’t really care to learn. I’m ok with that until they start complaining their carb doesn’t run right. Then either pay someone to fix it that you trust or, learn yourself.

I always see on the side of FABO members are not stupid and that most of them want to learn to tune better. Or drive better. Or shift better.

I know my driving skills are in the crapper right now from lack of practice. I will soon be hitting it again and I’ll have to teach my dumb self how to drive again.

That’s kinda the same thing.

I get why AJ (and you) don’t want to bother with one, and that’s ok. Trust me when I say I’ll probably never do EFI not because I can’t do it and tune it, but because I absolutely HATE all that wiring and ****. Just hate it.

Am I actively looking at an MSD Digital 7 box so I can start learning individual cylinder timing and such. I know there is power in individual cylinder timing.

Would I expect AJ to do it? Nope. And probably 99% of the people doing this hobby wouldn’t even be close to needing or wanting an ignition like that.

But for the 1% (I shouldn’t be talking in “absolutes” because some guys get offended…not on this forum but others) we want to keep learning.

And then the customer ends up with a better end product because I learned how and what to do.

That’s where I come from.

Plus, I know how much time AJ spends massaging his stuff. He gets it dialed in. He isn’t getting paid to tune his stuff so any extra time it takes him to tune it doesn’t matter.

I like to keep my tuning time as little as possible.
Click to expand...

Here’s the thrown together video from my cruise up the mountain if you guys are interested.

 
TrailBeast said:
Here’s the thrown together video from my cruise up the mountain if you guys are interested.

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Thanks for the video. Car is great and Jerome was supposed to be a stopping point when I was in Payson, but didn't make it.
 
So, I just had a discussion with an engine calibration engineer on the topic of an O2 lean reading due to a misfire or ignition issue. He confirmed yes, during engine development it has been seen. There is unburnt O2 that the sensor picks up. It also tends to add fuel to compensate for this (PCM controlled fuel injection). Also, in a V style engine, cylinder pressures and other funky things have been observed. This depended on the V angles, number of cylinders and firing orders.
 
I run dual quads on my 505. I use a vacuum gauge, AFR gauge, AND read my plugs to initially tune, change tune for different parts of the country (elevation), and try to maximize my WOT throttle tuning at the track. All of it are just tools at my disposal. I also log all of my time slips into a spreadsheet along with any changes i made. For me, this iterative process is part of the fun of my hobby.

I'm not really into putting around to car shows and donut get togethers - so you have to figure out what you like to do with these machines.
 
what did they do before 02 sensors....go to any cruz night, stand at the exit and watch them all leave.
After 10 cars your eyes and sinuses will be stinging from all the unburnt fumes.
 
ir3333 said:
what did they do before 02 sensors....go to any cruz night, stand at the exit and watch them all leave.
After 10 cars your eyes and sinuses will be stinging from all the unburnt fumes.
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No they didn’t and don’t.

I can find the same thing on **** with O2 sensors.

An O2 sensor won’t make you a tuner. All it CAN do is shorten tuning time.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
True. Or maybe some of us know living and dying by an O2 reading is a fools errand.
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DTF-Trust-but-verify.-dark-1024x1024.jpg
 
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