Over the Counter Zinc Additive

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QuickDart360 said:
Man Vr 1!? Ive been using that up till now no additive!:eek:
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Don't freak out..... look at the specs! Stop listening to every bit of rumor, including engine builders who are obviously not looking at the specs..

VR1: 1400 PPM of ZDDP. All weights. You're OK. Keep driving.
 
At a recent automotive local industry outing, I had a chance to speak with Amelie oil respresentatives about blends, weights, and additives. He suggested I run one of their diesel oils. 1600ppm zinc phosphate, as well as a better oil profile throughout the entire spectrum.

They ran it in their flat tappets. They have race cars and trucks they sponsor.
 
I used VR1 for several years beginning in 2003. About 5 years ago, my engine builder, along with a couple others locally, put out the word that ZDDP had been reduced in VR1. I called Valvoline and they told me that was not so. I chose to believe my engine builder and started using the Schneider additive. All are free to make their own decisions.
 
I'll give you kudos for calling Valvoline. The current Valvoline spec sheet tell the story..... 1400 PPM zinc..... anyone can look it up online. I'd recommend making decisions based on the manufacturer's data. I bet if you asked the shops down there, no one could tell you where their info came from. I've heard/read the VR1 rumors before.... even that they lowered the ZDDP and then raised it back up!

I looked for specs on the Schneider #2 additive and cannot find any info on the ZDDP concentrations, so personally consider it an unknown at this point. That does not mean is won't work fine, just that, if you cannot find the specs, then you can't really know where your ZDDP concentrations are ending up at. Keep in mind that if you OD the engine on ZDDP, that can cause its own problems; I've read mention of spalling on the cam surfaces as one... in technical and research papers on the subject.
 
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Old school right here. STP has all the zinc you need. I have been using this for decades in all my powerplants (engines) with hp up to 600 and it has yet to fail me so for me it works...
 
Im with you Gator. Ive used the stuff for fourty plus years and never had a problem. Remember the commercial they had years ago where they would dip a screwdriver in the STP and see if anyone could hold on to it ? There was a salesman at the gas station I worked at when I was 16 or so and I held it without slipping threw my fingers. My boss was laughing at the guy and he said," There is always a smart A$$ in every crowd" He gave me a free can ! Anyway the stuff works great or it wouldnt be on the shelves as long as it has.
 
I started using Rislone a couple years ago. I am looking for the zddp concentrate numbers but I just add a cup full to the oil. Engine Oil Supplement | Zinc Oil Treatment | ZDDP Supplement

36D348_AS01.jpg
 
The mention of STP got me curious and I found 2 oil analyses for the additives in STP.

The older one (2005) showed zinc at just under 2000 PPM in a 15 oz bottle opf the 4 cylinder product; that would raise ZDDP about 200 ppm if the whole bottle was added to 5 quarts of oil.
STP Red 4- cyl Oil Treatment | Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO | Bob Is The Oil Guy

The newer analysis (2012; the blue bottle stuff I presume) showed that the levels had dropped to <600 pmm in a 15 oz bottle, and that would leave the ZDDP levels essentially unchanged if the whole bottle was added to 5 qts of oil.
STP High Mileage Oil Treatment VOA | Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO | Bob Is The Oil Guy

So I have to wonder if the ZDDP has been seriously reduced in STP.... so as not to violate the new oil content mandates.... and if the 2nd link is accurate.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Our local GM dealer stocks the additive with a GM sticker on it even, and a GM pn.
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i wonder sometimes if it is necessary...lots of propaganda and i have read info that says it isn't necessary.The zinc products have become a billion dollar industry....even the cam manufacturers are in on the action.But like most, i use it "just in case" and have always added GM EOS.

edit...i never add a full bottle
 
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Some just use Mobil 1 15w-50 full synthetic. this particular blend is meant for flat tappet cams. It is at every Walmart for about 25 bucks for 5 qrts
 
Here is a 2004 virgin oil analysis for the GM EOS; ZDDP is WAAAY up there, but I don't know the container size to be able to see the resulting overall ZDDP PPM when adding to 5 qts of oil.

Whether or not the ZDDP levels have stayed the same in the GM EOS, I do not know.
 
ir3333 said:
i wonder sometimes if it is necessary...lots of propaganda and i have read info that says it isn't necessary.The zinc products have become a billion dollar industry....even the cam manufacturers are in on the action.But like most, i use it "just in case" and have always added GM EOS.
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I asked the same question. My current conclusions FWIW:
1) Yeah, it is a real problem. Things really did go to crap right when the ZDDP's level dropped by almost 50% around 2005-2006. The faster ramps in some cams today make it even more of an issue.
2) The need for ZDDP varies with the lifter to lobe pressure (based on readings research papers).
3) A stock spring setup and stock cam is probably going to be fine with the newer, lower ZDDP levels. (But, no guarantees just because I think so!)
4) Your standard 1st level step up in performance springs pressures, to something over 100 lbs closed and 250-300 lbs open spring pressures means you had better get the ZDDP PPM's back up the 1200-1400 PPM range.
5) If you are at, say, 400+ lbs of open spring pressure, I personally don't know the needed levels. A recent research paper shows that the amounts needed are related to the pressure of the surface contact, so it stands to reason that more may be needed than 1200-1400 PPM.
 
Quality of oil vs break down plays right along with what zinc actually does.... cushion parts. A high quality oil (not brand name, but synthetics) will also provide protection as well. when oil quits doing it's job, look out camshaft !! Heat, along with mileage, begins the breakdown of oil. Better quality oils will stand up against this breakdown longer and offer better protection.
I myself, in my 318 Duster, use QS high mileage (it has a little synth. blend and a little higher zinc count), and then I add a bottle of ZDDP MAXX. It's 14.97 for the 5 qrt jug of QS at Walmart, and 8 bucks for the ZDDP additive. 23 buck for oil that protects, not bad I dont' think
 
Here recently I changed the heads, intake and cam on my 360. Was going with a Hughes flat tappet cam but decided to go with a roller cam from Hughes. I called them and changed my order. I told them to take the Joe Gibbs high zinc oil off since I will not be needing it with the roller cam. Got a call back to my voice mail a little later that I would need to run the Joe Gibbs oil regardless of roller or FT cam. Called them back and he said one of the techs HIGHLY recommended I run high zinc oil with a roller cam! I told the sales guy to leave the oil on my order then and plan on running it.

What you guys think?
I guess it's much better to be safe than sorry. I don't mind paying a little extra for protection that I don't need but just wondering.
You guys running flat tappet cams are talking about which oil or additive is the best for your cams.... and I'm sitting here with a roller cam and still got to run high zinc!!!!:mad:
 
IDK.
but IMO,
A roller cam just moves the pressure point from a short narrow line on the bottom of the flat tappet to an even shorter narrower line, on perhaps two atta time of the the little tiny needle bearings, and the axle. So now the needles/axle see all the pain.
IMO tho it is easier to replace lifters when the needles give up, than to swap out a cam when the lobes fall off.
The part I have trouble with is lifter maintenance. Until you have inspected your roller lifters several times, you cannot know how fast the needles are wearing out in your particular combo. If the needles shatter on you,do the parts stay together, or travel throughout the engine? And if the parts do travel, what kind of damage are they gonna do?
I'm not into pulling the intake to have a look-see.Especially not several times.
So for at least the foreseeable future, I'm sticking with what I know works, namely, FTH and ZDDP.
I run enough spring pressure to turn 7200 reliably, with a Hughes HE3038AL and 1.6 arms. This is 276/286/110 and .549/.571 lift,so admittedly not too serious.

At one time,I was interested in a bushed-roller lifter with a large diameter axle. But the Hughes has been in there now since 2004 or so, and still going strong.
 
Understood. I suspect with all the unknown's around ZDDP (how it works exactly and how much is needed), the Hughes guys want the best protection they can get from returns or failure of their product.

You're right... it does not stand to reason that a roller would need the high ZDDP..... that is touted as a reason that ZDDP can be lowered in new oils! In your shoes, I'd do as they recommend for break-in and then research things more to conclude if you really need it long term. I would be tempted to call them back and ask WHY they recommend it for a roller....and try to find out the background of who you are talking to... there are some less than knowledgeable people out there. Maybe it is for piston wear protection??
 
AJ/FormS said:
IDK.
but IMO,
A roller cam just moves the pressure point from a short narrow line on the bottom of the flat tappet to an even shorter narrower line, on perhaps two atta time of the the little tiny needle bearings, and the axle. So now the needles/axle see all the pain.
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That is a good thought AJ. High performance is never easy! LOL
 
AJ/FormS said:
IDK.
but IMO,
A roller cam just moves the pressure point from a short narrow line on the bottom of the flat tappet to an even shorter narrower line, on perhaps two atta time of the the little tiny needle bearings, and the axle. So now the needles/axle see all the pain.
IMO tho it is easier to replace lifters when the needles give up, than to swap out a cam when the lobes fall off.
The part I have trouble with is lifter maintenance. Until you have inspected your roller lifters several times, you cannot know how fast the needles are wearing out in your particular combo. If the needles shatter on you,do the parts stay together, or travel throughout the engine? And if the parts do travel, what kind of damage are they gonna do?
I'm not into pulling the intake to have a look-see.Especially not several times.
So for at least the foreseeable future, I'm sticking with what I know works, namely, FTH and ZDDP.
I run enough spring pressure to turn 7200 reliably, with a Hughes HE3038AL and 1.6 arms. This is 276/286/110 and .549/.571 lift,so admittedly not too serious.

At one time,I was interested in a bushed-roller lifter with a large diameter axle. But the Hughes has been in there now since 2004 or so, and still going strong.
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Looking at the roller lifter from Hughes the needles can't come out of the lifter assembly if for some reason they fail. The roller and needles are up inside the body. I'm guessing there would be a very bad noise if one or all the needles gave out. Enough to give me a heads up that there is a problem. I don't think the cam would survive a failure of this nature however if the roller seized up. Geez.... lets don't talk about it.....lol
I'll just keep running high zinc and call it good.

AJ.... your inbox is full. I can't ask you a stupid question...lol
 
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