Over the Counter Zinc Additive

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mullinax95 said:
Looking at the roller lifter from Hughes the needles can't come out of the lifter assembly if for some reason they fail. The roller and needles are up inside the body. I'm guessing there would be a very bad noise if one or all the needles gave out. Enough to give me a heads up that there is a problem. I don't think the cam would survive a failure of this nature however if the roller seized up. Geez.... lets don't talk about it.....lol
I'll just keep running high zinc and call it good.

AJ.... your inbox is full. I can't ask you a stupid question...lol
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Well, I'll get right on to making room, see in yo there. I always forget about that box, so sorry.
 
All engine oil has to have some zinc in it, or it's not engine oil.

The zinc was reduced, not eliminated because the zinc kills catalytic converters.

The sliding friction of a flat tappet requires phosphated zinc.

Zinc is a horsepower killer. Adding more than you need is pissing away power.
 
dirty white boy said:
any body know how much zppd dose a hydrolic roller lifter cam needs on a ppm scale?
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Roller lifter cams don't need much zinc because the rollers have very little friction as they travel around the cam lobe. A regular lifter has drag or has to slide over the lobe.
 
toolmanmike said:
Roller lifter cams don't need much zinc because the rollers have very little friction as they travel around the cam lobe. A regular lifter has drag or has to slide over the lobe.
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yeah,..know all that,..but do thay need a certain amount? none at all?? lil bit? how much??
 
I would assume that since the rollers are not reporting problems with the new oils, then that new, lower level of ZDDP is OK. The new regulatory limit is 800 PPM and the new oils all seem to have 600-800 PPM.

BTW, FWIW, it is the phosphorus that is the problem in catalytics (from what I have read). Zinc and phosphous come together in ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate), and the phosphous weight is about 94% of the zinc weight.
 
You know all this hub bub about zinc, How many tens of thousands of flat tappet hydraulic engines are still running out there with nothing in the crankcase but whatever comes off the shelf nowdays. I don't remember hearing about a rash of flat cams since the early 80's when I worked at the GM store. Put a additive in just to be safe. I do but I don't measure it out down to the parts per million.
 
toolmanmike said:
You know all this hub bub about zinc, How many tens of thousands of flat tappet hydraulic engines are still running out there with nothing in the crankcase but whatever comes off the shelf nowdays. I don't remember hearing about a rash of flat cams since the early 80's when I worked at the GM store. Put a additive in just to be safe. I do but I don't measure it out down to the parts per million.
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i remember all those bad chev cams in the 80's and heard they were just poor quality.
I thought the zinc was lowered to save the catalytic converters?
 
When you are breaking in a flat tappet cam,.......I don't think that too much ZDDP can be a bad thing, period.
If you choose to use the modern oil of today, afterward. Your cam will have a shorter life then you're eng.
In other words, you will go through a few camshaft in the eng life. If anything in the valve train is not quite right. The cam life will be shortened even more. That could translate from days to years.

ALL the manufacturers had to either stop production of a motor or convert it over to roller lifter before the oil change could happen.
I truly believe that was why the jeep 4.0L(inline 6) when to the waste land. Chry should have made a double overhead cam with V.V.T. and that 4.0L would have RULED!........Ok that's a hole nother subject.:mob:

Bottom line ALL engs need a little ZDDP , we still have sliding part on are engs (piston rings sliding on bores for one)
Sliding, while spinning, flat tappet lifter require the most ZDDP.

And some will say, Ahh it a stock lift 318 with stock spring........It will be allright..........
just like tossing them loaded dice that come up roses every time,...........You will win every time until the casino escort You Out. aka, it a much higher percentage of success.....but it's going to bite you in the end. :wtf::D
just my opinions :poke: and some of it is from experience as well.
 
ir3333 said:
i remember all those bad chev cams in the 80's and heard they were just poor quality.
I thought the zinc was lowered to save the catalytic converters?
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It happened all about the same time. Soft cam cores is what I always heard.
 
Cudafever said:
When you are breaking in a flat tappet cam,.......I don't think that too much ZDDP can be a bad thing, period.
If you choose to use the modern oil of today, afterward. Your cam will have a shorter life then you're eng.
In other words, you will go through a few camshaft in the eng life. If anything in the valve train is not quite right. The cam life will be shortened even more. That could translate from days to years.

ALL the manufacturers had to either stop production of a motor or convert it over to roller lifter before the oil change could happen.
I truly believe that was why the jeep 4.0L(inline 6) when to the waste land. Chry should have made a double overhead cam with V.V.T. and that 4.0L would have RULED!........Ok that's a hole nother subject.:mob:

Bottom line ALL engs need a little ZDDP , we still have sliding part on are engs (piston rings sliding on bores for one)
Sliding, while spinning, flat tappet lifter require the most ZDDP.


And some will say, Ahh it a stock lift 318 with stock spring........It will be allright..........
just like tossing them loaded dice that come up roses every time,...........You will win every time until the casino escort You Out. aka, it a much higher percentage of success.....but it's going to bite you in the end. :wtf::D
just my opinions :poke: and some of it is from experience as well.
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I agree. Oils have some zddp now days. It may be not enough. So add some in when you change oil in the spring. I have used Isky break in lube and now I have Rislone that I used last year. STP works as does Lucas Break in additive. There's more brands out there. Big springs have to be harder on cam lobes than stock springs. Lifters that don't spin freely will wipe a lobe out in a matter of minutes. If your oil doesn't have enough zddp you have more of a chance to wipe out a lobe so err on the side of caution and use a additive to make sure. At least if you wipe a cam it probably wasn't caused by the oil you use or lack of additive.
 
toolmanmike said:
Roller lifter cams don't need much zinc because the rollers have very little friction as they travel around the cam lobe. A regular lifter has drag or has to slide over the lobe.
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This depends on how aggressive a roller cam is being employed, it can put a much more significant side-load on the lifter body in the bore, a race roller's approach to the
tappet & rate is pretty extreme so protection there IS something to consider. It is also true that break-in is the primary concern on a flat tappet because it may drag/
slide, it does not do this normally!, once broken in the lifter is supposed to spin freely in the bore w/the rotation of the cam lobe which is tapered to induce said spin in
conjunction w/the convex surface on the base of the lifter. This taper/convex face system is also what is supposed to keep cams w/o retaining plates back against the
block face at the cam gear. Yes, Chebby's cams were junk and half a bazillion 305's ate the exhaust lobes alive, nothing to do with the oil. 4100 Caddy's did the same,
but there were ton's of 302's, 318's and older Chebby SB's that were having absolutely -0- problems.
 
Until all of this Zinc hoopla started, i had no clue just how a flat tappet cam Really work. And realize just how few do or did.
I stopped at one of my buddy house, where he was replacing the cam on his dad truck for the second time(breaking in cam failure)
I proceeded to educate him on the importance of ZDDP. He proceeded to tell me that the same cam lobe had failed on the original as well as the replacement. Going on how brand X was a pos and he went to xyz for this cam. he proceed to tell me how bad the lifter was and how difficult it was to remove.
I ask him if it turn smooth in the bore, look at me puzzled and said a.......yah it goes up and down after i clean up the scratched.
I explained about how the lifters, are Not actually flat, that the cam was ground on a slight slop, to cause the lifter to spin in the bore, and that if the lifter STOPPED!,...... the cam would fail instantly.
I Reached down and twist the lifter in the bore and it turned but it felt like it was turning in sand paper.
I help him clean the bore up and reassembled it.
That was too year ago and and its still running today.
The lobe doesn't just slide across the lifter, it way more complicated than that.
But, before, the failure started happening, the simple statement was all we need to understand, about a flat tappet cam to install and make it live.
 
killer6 you explained that way better and faster than I:thumbsup:
 
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