Overdrive Options

-
LJS30 said:
Wow guys all this non-Mopar items going into our cars is making me remember the old days. The days when putting something non-Mopar in your car was blasphemy.
Click to expand...

if chrysler would have made something worth a **** then we wouldn't have to use brand X stuff. look at the OD selections from GM and ford.. look how small they are compared to the abortion (500/518) chrysler put out.
 
LJS30 said:
Wow guys all this non-Mopar items going into our cars is making me remember the old days. The days when putting something non-Mopar in your car was blasphemy.
Click to expand...
And those are the folks that either stick with an anemic gear ratio sacrificing performance, spend there time on the free way in the right lane going 40mph o there car is trailered everywhere it goes. I remember all to well driving my Ranger from North Jersey to South Jersey. Truck had 4.10's and 31" tires. No insulation in the cab and a pair of cats sitting under the floor. 3400 rpm for 90 miles sucked. Only vehicle I have ever owned that had the gear ratio it needed. Also the only one that I had a box of those foam ear plugs in and a bottle of aspirin.

abodyjoe said:
if chrysler would have made something worth a **** then we wouldn't have to use brand X stuff. look at the OD selections from GM and ford.. look how small they are compared to the abortion (500/518) chrysler put out.
Click to expand...
Yep.....the other alternative is a GV. Which is great if you already have a built 904/727 and don't mind not having a lock up convertor. Been watching the tach in our Explorer when I drive it. Lock up chops the rpm right 300 or so, helping all the more. But for those of us that are starting with no trans, by the time you build the 727/904, get a convertor and buy the GV you are not saving that much over going with something more modern. And then of course, there still is no lock up......
 
abodyjoe said:
if chrysler would have made something worth a **** then we wouldn't have to use brand X stuff. look at the OD selections from GM and ford.. look how small they are compared to the abortion (500/518) chrysler put out.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Joe. In fact I believe you've been around long enough to remember those days. It would have been awesome if there was even some kind of internal mod that could turn out 727/904's into overdrive units. However I know that's not possible.
 
inkjunkie said:
A good lock up convertor for a 4l80e is $900 or so, so even in the GM world it aint cheap. CircleD is 850-900 for a single disk and 1100 for a multi disk. While I am sure you can find one for less is it really gonna be worth it? I tried to save a few bucks when I had the trans built in my truck, did not take me long to end up having to pony up the money for a good convertor. I know a lot of folks have issues cutting there cars up, but for those of us that started with slant 6 3 on the tree cars who cares? From a dollar stand point what is it worth all original? And how much would it take to restore a car to get it to that point? I am wondering, size wise, how does the Ford AODE/4r70w compare to the gm200? There is a guy up in Canada, Lentech, that builds some pretty wicked aode/4r70w hybrids that can withstand a bucket load of power. Hoping when I go to AZ next week that my trans buddy has anaode and a 200 there so I can see.......
Click to expand...

My only reservations on the AODE/4r70w is that i dont think they have the best reputation. Plus, is there even an adapter?
 
I understand that in a peformance application you got to pay to play, but with a average daily driver type car in the 300 horse, 350 tq. range, can something along these lines work? Using the earlier mentioned 200 4R.....

Core.....$200 ish.
OH kit...$300 http://ckperformance.com/200R4_rebuild.html
Shift kit $135 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRG-200-4R-HD2/
Trans guy, on the side..$200
Wilcap Adapt...$575
Rebuilt lockup conv..stock type...$150-250.
Driveshaft mods & incedentals.....$400 ish.

I understand that it requires alot of labor & some fab on the owner part, but do you guys really think a senario like this isn't doable?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Edit: I removed my commentary as it was personal opinion and didn't help out the OP.
 
OldmanRick said:
I understand that in a peformance application you got to pay to play, but with a average daily driver type car in the 300 horse, 350 tq. range, can something along these lines work? Using the earlier mentioned 200 4R.....

Core.....$200 ish.
OH kit...$300 http://ckperformance.com/200R4_rebuild.html
Shift kit $135 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRG-200-4R-HD2/
Trans guy, on the side..$200
Wilcap Adapt...$575
Rebuilt lockup conv..stock type...$150-250.
Driveshaft mods & incedentals.....$400 ish.

I understand that it requires alot of labor & some fab on the owner part, but do you guys really think a senario like this isn't doable?

And for the record, i would never spend this kind of coin on a regulation, street driven "A", because the cost vs savings will be a loss on 90% of the conversions...in my opinion. There's always exceptions, but gear ratio, torque converter & tire size would be way more cost effective.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty decent rundown. (Your prices may vary... :) )
If you look at it from a strictly financial point of view, yep, conversions rarely make any real sense. Then again, does pouring money and all your spare time into an old car make any sense? The thing of it is, the OD trans swap adds a versatility and drivability to our old rides. I've done auto and manual, 4, 5, 6 speed conversions. It's almost never a totally low buck, plug and play install. (There are few exceptions). There are pros and cons to whichever route you choose to go and only you can make the deciscion as to what best suites you.
 
Thanks Rev. Well said.

I guess when i started searching around and saw 3-4000 bucks for some of these transmissions i just got a little iritated.....but, i'm ok now :icon_smi:.
 
magnumdust said:
My only reservations on the AODE/4r70w is that i dont think they have the best reputation. Plus, is there even an adapter?
Click to expand...
Lentech has adapters listed but I do not know if he would sell just the bell housing, and his prices aint cheap. My buddy that owns a trans shop had mentioned to me a while back that he might be able to get me an adapter form him as he has purchased parts from him in the past. There is another shop that has adapter bellhousings listed on there site, I will post it when I go get my old laptop out of the garage later....
 
OldmanRick said:
Thanks Rev. Well said.

I guess when i started searching around and saw 3-4000 bucks for some of these transmissions i just got a little iritated.....but, i'm ok now :icon_smi:.
Click to expand...

Glad to see you're feeling better.:D

I want to say the sad thing is that most trans conversion prices are going up to those price ranges (if not more, think 6 speed auto). I've been looking into the latest Chryco offerings, the 5rf45 and the NAG, for a customer and there is nowhere near as much info and support as the GM transmissions. It sounds counter intuitive, but for ease, this guy may get quoted for a 6 speed GM auto behind his 426 GenIII supercharged Hemi.

I am the first to admit that I haven't been paying attention and have to catch up on the newer Mopar ODs, but it is way harder to get the proper answers. I was told to shy away from the 500/518 trannys by my trans guy, but that was many years ago. Gdonovan's thread really opened my eyes on this subject. Although, I can't say I'm totally on board with a 4th gear you can't physically shift into.

I'm still reading and learning.
 
magnumdust said:
My only reservations on the AODE/4r70w is that i dont think they have the best reputation. Plus, is there even an adapter?
Click to expand...
I spoke with Ross from QuickTime a while back about getting a custom bellhousing made. He told me that as long as he had both of the pieces, the block end and the trans end, he could pretty much build anything. That is how I ended up with an adapter to go from a small block mopar to the 4l80e. Quicktime/Lakewood does offer a bellhousing for the aod/aode, Quick Time Rm-9061. When I spoke with Lakewood at a show over the summer I asked if they could custom make a bellhousing like Ross had for me and was told that they could. So, yes, a bellhousing is available. Again, it will not be inexpensive, I think I paid $650 or so for my SBM/4l80e piece. The aode/4r70w can be built to take some abuse, my buddy has built a few of them for some off road racers that have held up just fine......
 
inkjunkie said:
I spoke with Ross from QuickTime a while back about getting a custom bellhousing made. He told me that as long as he had both of the pieces, the block end and the trans end, he could pretty much build anything. That is how I ended up with an adapter to go from a small block mopar to the 4l80e. Quicktime/Lakewood does offer a bellhousing for the aod/aode, Quick Time Rm-9061. When I spoke with Lakewood at a show over the summer I asked if they could custom make a bellhousing like Ross had for me and was told that they could. So, yes, a bellhousing is available. Again, it will not be inexpensive, I think I paid $650 or so for my SBM/4l80e piece. The aode/4r70w can be built to take some abuse, my buddy has built a few of them for some off road racers that have held up just fine......
Click to expand...

What would the cost diff be between the 4l80 and the AODE (? don't speak Ford).
My understanding is the Henry trans has a reputation that isn't the best, so would it take more to build to a similar level?

I would like to apologize to LJS30 for my part in taking your thread way beyond your original question. There is some good info flowing through here.
 
Revhendo said:
What would the cost diff be between the 4l80 and the AODE (? don't speak Ford).
My understanding is the Henry trans has a reputation that isn't the best, so would it take more to build to a similar level?

I would like to apologize to LJS30 for my part in taking your thread way beyond your original question. There is some good info flowing through here.
Click to expand...
I will be hanging out with my transmission buddy the end of the week and will ask him to give me a guess on both of them. The one thing my buddy will ask is how much power are you looking at? In both cases, with a good rebuild and minimal hard parts they will be able to go behind a pretty healthy motor.....In the 80's case, with just a few parts tossed at 1200 hp is not beyond reach...
 
Revhendo said:
What would the cost diff be between the 4l80 and the AODE (? don't speak Ford).
My understanding is the Henry trans has a reputation that isn't the best, so would it take more to build to a similar level?

I would like to apologize to LJS30 for my part in taking your thread way beyond your original question. There is some good info flowing through here.
Click to expand...
the cost in parts should be fairly close, but for what you get, ford is usually more. the 4l80 is stronger, but the 4r70 has a better gear ratio. both will need after market shifters and controllers. and of course, an adapter plate.
 
To give you a number - I bought everything from Art Carr. I paid $3400 for the tranny, adapter plate, 2800 stall converter, super servo and all the linkage, including shipping. I had to buy some stock steel to make the lower cross member which was around $30, and of course I had to hae another driveshaft made for another $450. It's not cheap, but the reduced rpm lets me drive it almost daily. So I get my 500hp daily driver rather than having to drive my Lesabre all the time. As I said before - totally worth it.
 
OldmanRick said:
You must consider the rear gear you are currently running?

Ex: 3.21 with the 200R4's .67 od gives you a 2.15 in 4th. Might be a little lazy even at highway speeds.

With the above ^^^^^^^^^and a 26" tire, you'd be about 1700 @ 60mph.
Click to expand...
1700 at 70mph is and even better number in my opinion.
 
Why is it that everytime an OD conversation pops up, we're talking about automatics?

Why would you want an automatic in a muscle car?

Let's hear some options for the stick.:burnout: :violent1::protest::banghead:
 
OldmanRick said:
You must consider the rear gear you are currently running?

Ex: 3.21 with the 200R4's .67 od gives you a 2.15 in 4th. Might be a little lazy even at highway speeds.

With the above ^^^^^^^^^and a 26" tire, you'd be about 1700 @ 60mph.
Click to expand...

/6 Matt said:
1700 at 70mph is and even better number in my opinion.
Click to expand...

In many cases i would agree with you Matt. Those were just general numbers i used for a example. Reason i brought it up is that the older square faced cars tend to push more air then the modern stuff. At some point there are diminishing returns to lowering rpm. When you get to that point it requires more throttle opening to maintain speed. If it gets too bad, excessive TCC disengagement and even downshifting can result. The terrain where the majority of use is can also play a role.
 
/6 Matt said:
Why is it that everytime an OD conversation pops up, we're talking about automatics?

Why would you want an automatic in a muscle car?

Let's hear some options for the stick.:burnout: :violent1::protest::banghead:
Click to expand...
Only speaking for myself.....
For one, because I drove a stick daily for 20 years, that was more than enough for me. Reason #2, in my case the car will hopefully see some dragstrip duty and I am no Ronnie Sox, not to mention autos are a bit easier to deal with in a dual purpose car. For sticks, right now there is the kits from Kielser and others, the do it yourself t56, seen some folks talking about Dakota transmissions. Everything else is just in fantasy land. Besides, people are griping about the $$$ to swap in auto, the stick is more than likely going to be worse. With the price of a used t56 being what they are, at least the ones I have found, and then tacking on a rebuild it will pretty much be a wash for buying a new one at 2900. Toss in required scatter shield, clutch kit, flywheel, shifter and hydraulics for the clutch and depending on what you are starting with and where/what you do for parts you are going to hit the 5500-6000 mark. Sure, you will get some one to say I am drinking the bong water at these prices. To that I ask what parts are they starting with? And what are they going to use for parts? You talking some cheapo reman clutch disc or are you talking something decent? There is a few threads on the net where guys have swapped a t56, go and see what kind of dollars they spent. Have to toss out the guy that happened to stumble onto a brand new t56 for 500 somewhere, because those deal don't happen all that often. And I mentioned a rebuild because if I am going to go thru this much work to put a trans in my car I sure as hell am not going to swap something that has 100k+ for miles......especially something that came out of a Viper or whatever else the t56 came in...if I get a chance later I will try and find the list of stuff I was going to use when I was thinking about a t56. Sure there are other options, but I would not waste my time even researching say a t-5, because the thing is just not that much of a trans. Spent the early days of me being a gear head at a dragstrip with a guy that had a 10000 rpm sbc that ran mid 10's in a 3500 lb car. My buddy missed a gear, yours truly spent his time between rounds, pulling the trans to make sure nothing grenaded by the missed shift shift. No thanks, does not sound like much fun to me at 50 years old.....
 
OldmanRick said:
In many cases i would agree with you Matt. Those were just general numbers i used for a example. Reason i brought it up is that the older square faced cars tend to push more air then the modern stuff. At some point there are diminishing returns to lowering rpm. When you get to that point it requires more throttle opening to maintain speed. If it gets too bad, excessive TCC disengagement and even downshifting can result. The terrain where the majority of use is can also play a role.
Click to expand...
If you were to use an aftermarket controller TCC and od are adjustable your call, just plug a laptop in and adjust away. Most of the modern day autos don't have that steep of an od ratio, I think the 200 has the most at .67. This transmissions are obviously not for every one. If you live in the mountains and are driving around in a /6 car than obviously these are not for you. But if you throw the torque of a v-8, and any sort of performance gear ratio things change. For a brief while I had a 4x4 F150 with a bit of a lift. 33" tires, 4.56 gears and an e4od. Had a 351W under the hood, built for mid range power. Truck had no troubles staying in od with the tc locked up at any speed over 50 mph. Thing was about as aerodynamic as a barn....When throwing an od and a lock up tc into the equation it becomes even more important to build the car as a complete unit, not just a motor......a trans.........and a rear end.......Spend some time at the LS1tech forum, or any one of the newer Mustang forums and I bet you will find more folks running an od/lockup or in the case of a stick an od than not....
 
inkjunkie said:
If you were to use an aftermarket controller TCC and od are adjustable your call, just plug a laptop in and adjust away. Most of the modern day autos don't have that steep of an od ratio, I think the 200 has the most at .67. This transmissions are obviously not for every one. If you live in the mountains and are driving around in a /6 car than obviously these are not for you. But if you throw the torque of a v-8, and any sort of performance gear ratio things change. For a brief while I had a 4x4 F150 with a bit of a lift. 33" tires, 4.56 gears and an e4od. Had a 351W under the hood, built for mid range power. Truck had no troubles staying in od with the tc locked up at any speed over 50 mph. Thing was about as aerodynamic as a barn....When throwing an od and a lock up tc into the equation it becomes even more important to build the car as a complete unit, not just a motor......a trans.........and a rear end.......Spend some time at the LS1tech forum, or any one of the newer Mustang forums and I bet you will find more folks running an od/lockup or in the case of a stick an od than not....
Click to expand...

The 6L50/6L80/6L90 have the same final ratio.
 
1970Duster said:
The 6L50/6L80/6L90 have the same final ratio.
Click to expand...
I believe it is .75? The 4l80, which is what will be going in my car is a .75. Couple it with a 4.10 rear gear and you have a final drive of 3.075, very similar to what many of our cars cam with. Only speaking for myself, when I did drive one of these cars all the time, I very rarely if ever encountered a hill that would take an auto car out of drive at 60 mph. That being said, why would it shift out of od if so equipped? Same can be said for lock up, considering that the controller I have allows me to adjust the clutch based on several factors, 2 of them being speed and tps. Could very easily set it up so that at anything under half throttle at 60 mph the tcc stays locked up.
 
Have to say I agree with Matt, give me a stick any day. Not for everyone, but if I have a choice I would rather drive a stick everyday, any day. Even in winter.

Maybe it because I like being part of the equation. Driving an auto is too much like being along for the ride, but when I do it all right with a manual trans, it just feels good and right. And I know for a fact that not everyone can do it right, so it just feels that much better that I can. Not saying I always do it right, but I sure enjoy it when I do. ;-)

Not knocking people that prefer auto's, just my opinion and preference.

Now, I do have an issue in that my wife greatly dislikes manuals, which means that if I want to build a car we can drive across the USA, either I have to plan to drive the whole way or think about an auto so we can switch off. Still haven't solved that dilemma.

Doesn't add anything to the conversation, just had to put in my 2 cents.

Now, options for an OD in a more "hands on" configuration aren't limited to a T56 or TKO either. I don't believe in the T5 for anything with any torque, but there is the option of an R154 or similar. Not a perfect trans, and you have to roll your own adapter if you want to keep your 130T flywheel or you are forced to run a truck 143T flywheel with the truck bell that makes it a bolt on. And you have to do some significant floor mods, but it's far cheaper than a T56 swap. If you already have a 4 speed car, the best bet might just be Jamie's A855. It's pricey but can be installed in a weekend and isn't much more than the 200R4 swap that has been kicked around.

If I didn't have a rare 4 speed car, I would have already cut the floor out of it for the R154 I bought for $400 used. Sometimes I wish I owned a 318 Duster instead. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top