Overdrive Options

[1970Duster]

Have to say I agree with Matt, give me a stick any day. Not for everyone, but if I have a choice I would rather drive a stick everyday, any day. Even in winter.

Maybe it because I like being part of the equation. Driving an auto is too much like being along for the ride, but when I do it all right with a manual trans, it just feels good and right. And I know for a fact that not everyone can do it right, so it just feels that much better that I can. Not saying I always do it right, but I sure enjoy it when I do. ;-)

Not knocking people that prefer auto's, just my opinion and preference.

Now, I do have an issue in that my wife greatly dislikes manuals, which means that if I want to build a car we can drive across the USA, either I have to plan to drive the whole way or think about an auto so we can switch off. Still haven't solved that dilemma.

Doesn't add anything to the conversation, just had to put in my 2 cents.

Now, options for an OD in a more "hands on" configuration aren't limited to a T56 or TKO either. I don't believe in the T5 for anything with any torque, but there is the option of an R154 or similar. Not a perfect trans, and you have to roll your own adapter if you want to keep your 130T flywheel or you are forced to run a truck 143T flywheel with the truck bell that makes it a bolt on. And you have to do some significant floor mods, but it's far cheaper than a T56 swap. If you already have a 4 speed car, the best bet might just be Jamie's A855. It's pricey but can be installed in a weekend and isn't much more than the 200R4 swap that has been kicked around.

If I didn't have a rare 4 speed car, I would have already cut the floor out of it for the R154 I bought for $400 used. Sometimes I wish I owned a 318 Duster instead.

Lots of new cars have them. Its call Auto-Manual. You put the tranny in Manual mode you have to manual change the gears, when you've had your fill of that you put in back in auto mode. Quite simple actually (plus it can and WILL out shift a standard manual anyday of the week).

 

[DionR]

Lots of new cars have them. Its call Auto-Manual. You put the tranny in Manual mode you have to manual change the gears, when you've had your fill of that you put in back in auto mode. Quite simple actually (plus it can and WILL out shift a standard manual anyday of the week).

I know, but truth be told those don't feel like a real manual to me. We have the AutoStick setup in our PT and it just seems like a gimmick. Give me a third pedal any day, and a stick that I can change gears with (and I don't mean a raised pinky flick left or right movement, either).

I know that the true auto-manual stuff like in the Porches and Ferrari's are faster, but it doesn't change the feel to me.

Also, a true "gear-box" that shifts itself is one thing, but an manually shifted slush box isn't the same to me.

 

[magnumdust]

I know, but truth be told those don't feel like a real manual to me. We have the AutoStick setup in our PT and it just seems like a gimmick. Give me a third pedal any day, and a stick that I can change gears with (and I don't mean a raised pinky flick left or right movement, either).

I know that the true auto-manual stuff like in the Porches and Ferrari's are faster, but it doesn't change the feel to me.

Also, a true "gear-box" that shifts itself is one thing, but an manually shifted slush box isn't the same to me.

While i 100% agree with liking stick over automatic, its just that for me, the manual swap is too much of a pita or too expensive.

Whichever way you go, there is heavy cutting and about 3k in parts(the bulk of which is spent on a pricey transmission to handle the power)

So given all that, i'll compromise with an overdrive auto from GM and a manual valve body.(hoping to start my project here in a few weeks.)

 

[Revhendo]

Have to say I agree with Matt, give me a stick any day. Not for everyone, but if I have a choice I would rather drive a stick everyday, any day. Even in winter.

Maybe it because I like being part of the equation. Driving an auto is too much like being along for the ride, but when I do it all right with a manual trans, it just feels good and right. And I know for a fact that not everyone can do it right, so it just feels that much better that I can. Not saying I always do it right, but I sure enjoy it when I do. ;-)

Not knocking people that prefer auto's, just my opinion and preference.

Now, I do have an issue in that my wife greatly dislikes manuals, which means that if I want to build a car we can drive across the USA, either I have to plan to drive the whole way or think about an auto so we can switch off. Still haven't solved that dilemma.

Doesn't add anything to the conversation, just had to put in my 2 cents.

Now, options for an OD in a more "hands on" configuration aren't limited to a T56 or TKO either. I don't believe in the T5 for anything with any torque, but there is the option of an R154 or similar. Not a perfect trans, and you have to roll your own adapter if you want to keep your 130T flywheel or you are forced to run a truck 143T flywheel with the truck bell that makes it a bolt on. And you have to do some significant floor mods, but it's far cheaper than a T56 swap. If you already have a 4 speed car, the best bet might just be Jamie's A855. It's pricey but can be installed in a weekend and isn't much more than the 200R4 swap that has been kicked around.

If I didn't have a rare 4 speed car, I would have already cut the floor out of it for the R154 I bought for $400 used. Sometimes I wish I owned a 318 Duster instead.

I agree with the stick part almost completely. I am good with a stick, not Mr. 4 Speed good, but good just the same. I finally converted my Road Runner to the 440/4spd of my dreams and it was a gas to drive. Until my knee gave out......

 

[Mopar to ya]

I am with Inkjunkie on this one. I drove a stick for a lot of years. Even so, that was my first choice in my Dart. Kiesler gave me an estimate for the whole package. Tranny, pedals, hydraulics, driveshaft, etc.... and it was $5600 and that was a year and a half ago. Then came all the labor to install. It was more than I wanted to spend or do. And at the track, I can shift faster with my automatic ratchet shifter and never worry about missing a gear. The whole point of this thread was no about racing, though. It was about overdrive options. That to me means the car will be driven on the street a lot. No overdrive will be cheap. And since the car is already an automatic, there will be a lot of work to change it to manual. You need to decide if you want automatic or manual and make your choices from there. I chose a 200R4 and am very happy. I know people with GearVendors who are happy. Who can say what's best? Budget, time and ability will affect the choice. No matter what you choose, you will likely be very happy when you are driving down the highway and see how low the tach reads.

 

[LJS30]

LS-
did i sell you the intake i ported?

I believe you did! It's worked out very well for me. I'm having carb issues now though but I'm hoping it's just from sediment out of the tank.

 

[LJS30]

What would the cost diff be between the 4l80 and the AODE (? don't speak Ford).
My understanding is the Henry trans has a reputation that isn't the best, so would it take more to build to a similar level?

I would like to apologize to LJS30 for my part in taking your thread way beyond your original question. There is some good info flowing through here.

No problem. It's all about the education for me man.

 

[Powerflite]

lol.. not in the mopar world.. let us know if you figure out how to get a OD in a mopar at GM prices

I did just that... but it wasn't in an A body. I put a 700-R4 into a B-body and spent only $760 - total including the driveshaft. I also didn't have to cut the floor or the torsion bar brace at all. Unfortunately, the A-body is too short to make it work out this easy though But, you could probably get away with cutting the front half of the torsion bar brace like they do for the Keisler auto-overdrive conversion.
You can check it out here if you are interested:

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...5647-700R4-Swap-into-66-70-small-block-B-body

 

[LJS30]

I did just that... but it wasn't in an A body. I put a 700-R4 into a B-body and spent only $760 - total including the driveshaft. I also didn't have to cut the floor or the torsion bar brace at all. Unfortunately, the A-body is too short to make it work out this easy though But, you could probably get away with cutting the front half of the torsion bar brace like they do for the Keisler auto-overdrive conversion.
You can check it out here if you are interested:

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...5647-700R4-Swap-into-66-70-small-block-B-body

Wait a second? You have to cut part of the torsion bar brace? I don't know about you guys but reliable and strong T-Bars are very important to me.

 

[DionR]

Wait a second? You have to cut part of the torsion bar brace? I don't know about you guys but reliable and strong T-Bars are very important to me.

Then your only real options are the Passon A855 for $4300 or a used A833OD, plus the parts to swap your car to a 4 speed if it isn't already one. Even the Keisler setup cuts the flange off the front of the crossmember, and the 200R4 needs some scallops. Everything else that I am aware of requires you to build a completely new crossmember and transmission mount.

You can rebuild it, there are ways to keep the strength, some of them are even way overkill. Just don't cut it out and go without a crossmember. People have, but I wouldn't.

 

[Powerflite]

Then your only real options are the Passon A855 for $4300 or a used A833OD, plus the parts to swap your car to a 4 speed if it isn't already one...

Yeah, that or the gear vendor. However, I have been told that in order to put a gear vendor into an A-body, you have to use the short tailshaft 727 transmission from a ?van?. If you use the standard length transmission, the driveshaft will end up being too short and will give you bad vibes.

I really don't want to mess with the sheetmetal on my automatic 383-S car so it will get a Gear Vendor unit.

 

[Tjfly4pay]

Hey folks. I have a good thread on the T-56 Magnum conversion if you are interested. I also have some info I want to share on overdrives.
I built my 64 Valiant with a 5.2 magnum engine and A-518 from a 94 Dodge Ram truck. I used a new 3.91 SG Rear axle.
When I first completed the conversion.... Things worked properly, no diagnostic codes, etc.
I was a bit surprised with the performance. The car ran ok... Got 23 MPG... Everything seemed good. When I floored the throttle.... It would spin the tires some... And then rev and accelerate, but not like I had hoped. I swapped ECU's, got a great torque converter, while each of these helped.... It never cured the problem I felt.
I have many, many years of experience with good running Street small block Mopar engines. Nothing way radical, 340 CI, mid 12 to mid 11 sec. 1/4 mile. I realize that the 318 wouldn't be the same.... And the computer controlled the EFI..., it just didn't seem right.
SO....... I pulled the engine, ECU, wiring, etc. I had a 340 that I had ran many times at the race track... Running low 12's , low 11's with 100 HP NOS.
I kept the same torque converter, same 518 trans., same gear, etc.
It ran much better..... Much better.. But it didn't feel like my 68 barracuda (mid 12 sec. Street car).
I will cut to the chase. After asking many people about the problem, the only remaining area of possible trouble was the transmission. While everything on the transmission worked perfectly, the overdrive and the lockup functioned perfectly,.... The car still felt like it was towing a 3500 lb. trailer!!! I was devistated!!!
Since I had just pulled a wonderful 727 from my fathers 69 Cuda to install the T-56, it was just sitting on the floor. I decided to finally pull the suspected problem transmission, and replace it with this 727.
Once completed.... I got to take it out for a test drive today!!
I FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!! Wow!!!! Now this car runs like it is supposed to!!! Simply amazing!!!!!!
I have talked to several reputable transmission people, and they all tend to agree that the 518/500 take a huge amount of power to run. Now... An everyday driver... Might be ok, but it was a baffling disappointment for me.
If there are any questions that I can answer, please let me know. I hope this will be of some value to others. Thanks Todd.

 

[1970Duster]

Hey folks. I have a good thread on the T-56 Magnum conversion if you are interested. I also have some info I want to share on overdrives.
I built my 64 Valiant with a 5.2 magnum engine and A-518 from a 94 Dodge Ram truck. I used a new 3.91 SG Rear axle.
When I first completed the conversion.... Things worked properly, no diagnostic codes, etc.
I was a bit surprised with the performance. The car ran ok... Got 23 MPG... Everything seemed good. When I floored the throttle.... It would spin the tires some... And then rev and accelerate, but not like I had hoped. I swapped ECU's, got a great torque converter, while each of these helped.... It never cured the problem I felt.
I have many, many years of experience with good running Street small block Mopar engines. Nothing way radical, 340 CI, mid 12 to mid 11 sec. 1/4 mile. I realize that the 318 wouldn't be the same.... And the computer controlled the EFI..., it just didn't seem right.
SO....... I pulled the engine, ECU, wiring, etc. I had a 340 that I had ran many times at the race track... Running low 12's , low 11's with 100 HP NOS.
I kept the same torque converter, same 518 trans., same gear, etc.
It ran much better..... Much better.. But it didn't feel like my 68 barracuda (mid 12 sec. Street car).
I will cut to the chase. After asking many people about the problem, the only remaining area of possible trouble was the transmission. While everything on the transmission worked perfectly, the overdrive and the lockup functioned perfectly,.... The car still felt like it was towing a 3500 lb. trailer!!! I was devistated!!!
Since I had just pulled a wonderful 727 from my fathers 69 Cuda to install the T-56, it was just sitting on the floor. I decided to finally pull the suspected problem transmission, and replace it with this 727.
Once completed.... I got to take it out for a test drive today!!
I FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!! Wow!!!! Now this car runs like it is supposed to!!! Simply amazing!!!!!!
I have talked to several reputable transmission people, and they all tend to agree that the 518/500 take a huge amount of power to run. Now... An everyday driver... Might be ok, but it was a baffling disappointment for me.
If there are any questions that I can answer, please let me know. I hope this will be of some value to others. Thanks Todd.

And this is why you use the 200R4, it takes the same or less power then a 904 does

 

[Powerflite]

This is an interesting site that backs up Tjfly4pay's experience:

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id21.html

They say:
"That A500 or A518 transmission in your Mopar is consuming enough horsepower over one of our fully prepared 904s or 727 to cost you up to 1 1/2 SECONDS in Elapsed Time in the Quarter Mile.
NOTE: IN A 3600 lb VEHICLE YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD 100 HP TO DROP 1.5 SECONDS.
Such power consumption is a result of the very high inertia weight created by the components required in the overdrive portion of the transmission. These components are stopped until your truck starts to move. At this point they must accellerate from a stop to full driveshaft speed."

Also; interestingly, they claim that the Gear Vendors unit is much more efficient than the A518:

"To obtain the MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE potential of your truck you will be losing the rpm reducing potential of your overdrive gear.
If this function is important to you but you still want a major performance improvement, we can provide the GEAR VENDORS overdrive unit to the conversion kit. Installing the GearVendors Overdrive will add approximately 1/4 second in e.t."

Makes me wonder what is the main cause. Is it excessive hydraulic drag or just mechanical inertia? Sounds like it is a lot of both.

 

[Tjfly4pay]

Oh... I forgot something......
I have a very nice, slightly used 518 for sale....

Anchor included!!!!

 

[Woods74]

This is an interesting site that backs up Tjfly4pay's experience:

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id21.html

Makes me wonder what is the main cause. Is it excessive hydraulic drag or just mechanical inertia? Sounds like it is a lot of both.

I don't buy it, was his torque converter matched to his application? Really matched? Plus its a 518, they take more power to run, just like the 727. On that link, all I see is a ridiculously colored sales pitch. Lets let more chime in on the subject. Still doing my 42RH swap without batting an eyelash.

And this is why you use the 200R4, it takes the same or less power then a 904 does

The only reason that it makes sense to run a 200r4 is if your scared of chopping up your car. Everything else 42RH wins. Plus it's way cheaper to get into an a body. Way cheaper.

 

[Tjfly4pay]

I don't buy it, was his torque converter matched to his application? Really matched? Plus its a 518, they take more power to run, just like the 727. On that link, all I see is a ridiculously colored sales pitch. Lets let more chime in on the subject. Still doing my 42RH swap without batting an eyelash.

I just hate to tell you this, but the 518 and the 500 use the same overdrive. That is where the problem is. Sure a 904 has a bit less internal inertia to overcome than a 727.... So you can say the same about the 500 vs. the 518.
I started off with the stock converter.... Is was fine... Worked ok... So the initial flash was much less... It was a dog out of the hole.... No problem I thought... I'll get a good converter, and that will fix it....well, it helped.... But it certainly didn't overcome the problem. I was running a VIPER converter... Yes matched to my application, I am far from new to this stuff!!! I was told that the 727 has 5 lbs. of weight to compare to 33 lbs. of the 518, specifically. Ok... Let's say a 904 has ZERO INTERNAL INERTIA, you still have 28 in the OD. Look.... No one wanted to make this combo work more than ME!!! Hey.... Performance may not be all that important to some people.... I just happen to fall into a different category. I want my setup to be as RIGHT, AND FAST, as possible, and this transmission was THE PROBLEM.....PERIOD!! FWIW. Todd

 

[Furious65]

So, let me get this straight, the a500/a518/42rh/46rh are driving the OD all the time even though not in OD therefore pulling HP, yes? I just don't see it. Why would Mopar build a trans meant to help improve mpg yet rob as much as 100hp? That would mean it wouldn't be good for mileage over a normal 904/727 even with the OD! I would really like to hear from a Mopar trans tech on how the OD trans works to see if this is actually what is happening.

 

[Woods74]

So, let me get this straight, the a500/a518/42rh/46rh are driving the OD all the time even though not in OD therefore pulling HP, yes? I just don't see it. Why would Mopar build a trans meant to help improve mpg yet rob as much as 100hp? That would mean it wouldn't be good for mileage over a normal 904/727 even with the OD! I would really like to hear from a Mopar trans tech on how the OD trans works to see if this is actually what is happening.

Yup. John Kunkel over at Moparts comes to mind. I will post results when I do the swap.

 

[1970Duster]

The only reason that it makes sense to run a 200r4 is if your scared of chopping up your car. Everything else 42RH wins. Plus it's way cheaper to get into an a body. Way cheaper.

Sorry, but I think you're shootin so far in the dark I think your blind. Not trying to be mean but other then the cost of an adaptor (which if you think about it seriously for a moment) the amount of work needed, time materials skill (getting a shop to do it if you don't have the skill $$$$) that adaptor works out to be about the same cost of that labor. Now you can put a used tranny in a car but I'm not it gets rebuilt before it goes in my car (oh and it's cheaper to rebuild a 200r4 then the 42rh the whole GM over Mopar) Now you can buy a one from a performance shop or a trusted local or yourself save a little bit that way. that said youll put more power to the ground with the 200R4 and these things can be built to withstand more power then a 42rh, just pointing that out. Sorry man but GM beats Mopar in small overdrive tranny. Also if you'll willing to do that much cut and redo the tunnel, why limit yourself to a 4 speed auto when a little more you can get a 6 speed auto? It just doesn't make any sense to get less when you can get a double overdrive and better rear gears. Just Something to think about.

 

[Revhendo]

For those who doubt what a 200R4 will handle, I offer this car I did about 5 years ago with a 572 BBC and a 200R4. It's not the first car we stuffed this combo in, but probably the coolest. Haven't had a lick of trouble with the trans in this car. (Hey, at least it isn't a 350/350).

 

[Woods74]

Sorry, but I think you're shootin so far in the dark I think your blind. Not trying to be mean but other then the cost of an adaptor (which if you think about it seriously for a moment) the amount of work needed, time materials skill (getting a shop to do it if you don't have the skill $$$$) that adaptor works out to be about the same cost of that labor. Now you can put a used tranny in a car but I'm not it gets rebuilt before it goes in my car (oh and it's cheaper to rebuild a 200r4 then the 42rh the whole GM over Mopar) Now you can buy a one from a performance shop or a trusted local or yourself save a little bit that way. that said youll put more power to the ground with the 200R4 and these things can be built to withstand more power then a 42rh, just pointing that out. Sorry man but GM beats Mopar in small overdrive tranny. Also if you'll willing to do that much cut and redo the tunnel, why limit yourself to a 4 speed auto when a little more you can get a 6 speed auto? It just doesn't make any sense to get less when you can get a double overdrive and better rear gears. Just Something to think about.

I've thought about it a lot actually, even if you weren't as gifted as myself to have a shop, You still have to fabricate a cross-member either way. The cost to cut out and weld in a 1/4 piece of steel for the torsion bar support is laughable. We're splitting hairs here. For me it costs $700 to put in a 42RH with a decent torque converter. I lost count what Mopar to ya spent on his 200r4. As far as putting more power to the ground with 200R4 vs 42RH I still don't see conclusive evidence of parasitic loss between the two. Still going 42RH. Not going to debate further until I see something concrete.

 

[inkjunkie]

Cut out the torsion bar crossmember entirely, get a Hemi Denny front end, sawzall the floor and put a 4l80e in it.....at least that is what I will be doing some year.......About the 6l80e....I have yet to see a stand alone controller for it. Did some reading on one of the LS forums and this http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/news-view.php?id=38 was the only controller that anyone has found. While I did not read everything someone said it is NOT a stand alone controller, that the only way it will work is with an LS for a power plant. I don't remember seeing a bellhousing/adapter for it in the Lakewood/QuickTime book. Would like to see some info that contradicts this....4.027 2.364 1.532 1.152 0.852 0.667....other than the stump pulling low gear I don't see that big of a deal with its ratios. 4th is not a 1:1, fifth is shorter than the 80's od ratio of .75 and the 60's final gear is not going ot save you that much rpm over the 80's. Just plugged some numbers into an online calculator, 4.1 rear gear, 27" tire, 65 mph. The 80's rpm will be 2487, the 60's will be 2212......can't see that even being worth talking about.......given the fact that the 60 you will be in some what uncharted territory.....

 

[Revhendo]

I've thought about it a lot actually, even if you weren't as gifted as myself to have a shop, You still have to fabricate a cross-member either way. The cost to cut out and weld in a 1/4 piece of steel for the torsion bar support is laughable. We're splitting hairs here. For me it costs $700 to put in a 42RH with a decent torque converter. I lost count what Mopar to ya spent on his 200r4. As far as putting more power to the ground with 200R4 vs 42RH I still don't see conclusive evidence of parasitic loss between the two. Still going 42RH. Not going to debate further until I see something concrete.

I'm a bit confused by your $700 figure. This is a rebuilt performance trans with a performance lock up converter? The last performance converter I bought for my 727 was something like $300. So you're saying I can do the rest of the conversion for less than four C notes? Buying a core trans, stripping it, cleaning it, putting it together with upgraded parts? Not to mention getting the Hobbs switches and wiring them in. Of course there is the one fifty or so that my driveshaft shop is going to nick me for shortening the driveshaft and balancing. I just bought a case of trans fluid and it cost me $70 bucks. You're not just gifted, you're magical.

 

[Tjfly4pay]

So, let me get this straight, the a500/a518/42rh/46rh are driving the OD all the time even though not in OD therefore pulling HP, yes? I just don't see it. Why would Mopar build a trans meant to help improve mpg yet rob as much as 100hp? That would mean it wouldn't be good for mileage over a normal 904/727 even with the OD! I would really like to hear from a Mopar trans tech on how the OD trans works to see if this is actually what is happening.

Yes the OD is being driven all the time.... Whether it is engaged or not.
It is an add on to the rear of a 904 or 727 (500/518 respectively). It is NOT a 4th gear inside the main case of the transmission. You ask "why would MOPAR build a trans...?". Because while it is very true that the acceleration would be greatly affected, once it is spun up to highway speed.... Now your parasitic drag has been neutralized, or at least minimized. So the .69 will still give you a better cruise performance and mileage.
I hope a trans tech speaks up here, but I can tell you what the difference feels like and it is dramatic!!!!
Look, I don't want to bash anyone's hopes, dreams, and expectations.....
However, I would like people to know, and not be disappointed when their project doesn't work the way they expect it to. This OD from MOPAR I think was an initial attempt at getting better gas mileage.... They have come up with better technology since then.
While my car with the 518 impressed everyone that I ever took for a ride, it is now unbelievable!!! The horsepower that has been freed up, makes this car run amazing..... First and second gear are like being on ice....
I wanted to retain the OD, AND DIDN'T WANT TO BELIVE THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!!!! Now I have a new problem..... I gotta buy some sticky tires!!!
Now that's a good problem to have, if you ask me!!! Todd