Pissed off with motor, want to change

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Can you get another pic of the reluctor from the top down. It does not appear to be in the correct position relative to the rotor slot.
 
jimmyray said:
Ok, 2 questions. Was your damper at the 0 Mark? Are you sure you did not install the distributor 180 off?

If your timing was set to 12 TDC, the the reluctor should be about 12 degrees clockwise of the pickup nipple. Are you sure you are not timing it at 12 after TDC?
Click to expand...

At these pictures the timing mark was at 0 exactly. It wouldn't run 180 off. Possibly it is after. I can barely see the marks. Left to right reading 10 - 0 -10, it is on the left of zero.
 
Something does not look right. The ignition fires when 1 of the 8 reluctor extensions pass the pickup. Therefore, if you have it set at 12 before top dead center, the reluctor should be on the other side of the pickup, not where it is presently, which is around 12 degrees before the reluctor tip. (the rotor runs clockwise on a small block) See pics below.
 

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When you said 180 degree rotation of the distributor would not run, does that mean you actually tried it?
 
jimmyray said:
The relative position of the rotor cap to the reluctor does not change, I agree. The rotor cap position relative to the distributor cap does change. Mechanical advance rotates the shaft relative to the stationary pickup, which is attached to the stationary distributor and cap, thus firing the coil sooner.
Click to expand...

NO IT DOES NOT. The rotor and reluctor are connected together, and this means that WHEN the spark happens the reluctor is in EXACTLY the same place as the rotor. WHAT CHANGES is the relationship of the rotor/ reluctor on the SHAFT

I'm tellin you buddy. I know what I'm talking about on this little point, here.
 
WITHOUT KNOWING which hole the no1 wire is in those pictures show nothing. What you need to do is this:

Put the marks on what you believe the timing to be set at

Carefully scribe directly under the no1 plug tower, remove the cap, and put a small file mark to match on the top rim of the distributor. THEN take a picture of the dist. with the timing marks at whatever you believe the timing "is," 10BTC etc

Each reluctor represents 90* of crank rotation. This means, for example, in your first picture with the marks at TDC, AND DEPENDING UPON which tower the no1 wire is plugged into, either the timing is about 15 BTC or way WAY after TDC, probably as much as 50 degrees.

You can tell this by looking at the reluctor tips. Each tip represents 90* of crank rotation. This means if you "eyeball" 1/2 way between, that's 40-45* advance/ retard, depending on what "hole" you are "in."

In this case, we are talking about maybe 1/4-1/3 between.

WE NEED TO KNOW what hole no1 is in for certain.

You might want to use a piston stop to be sure the timing marks are correct, know how to do that?

You should be able to "set up" the engine with no1 ready to fire, the timing marks wherever you want the timing (10-15 BTC, etc) and just set the dist. in with the reluctor pointing to the middle of the pickup. Make sure the rotor points to where no1 is plugged in. With that setup, the engine should fire right up with no fuss at all.

How about mechanical advance, have you revved it up to see what you have for total advance?
 
jimmyray said:
Did you even read my comment, or do you just want to argue?

Before you call me "buddy" re-read my reply to your correct statement. I agreed with you!

The reluctor and the rotor are LOCKED TOGETHER on the same shaft. However, the rotor/reluctor's position relative to the pickup/distributor cap does change, else you would get no advance. The keyed shaft that fits the oil pump drive shaft always stays locked to the cam/oil pump drive. The shaft the reluctor/rotor is mounted to advances up to 15 degrees (30 timing degrees) relative to the oil pump drive, controlled by the counterweights and the springs.
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So you are now saying that what you posted earlier IS NOT TRUE?


jimmyray said:
.....................................However, at TDC, when timing is set to 0, the rotor should be 5-15 degrees AFTER the #1 wire location on the distributor. Therefor, as the mechanical advance kicks in, the it gets closer to center and then a few degrees positioned BEFORE the #1 wire location.............................................


...................Since the Distributor rotates once for every 2 engine rotations, that means the spark has to jump 1/2 that range of advance, e.g. 27.5 degrees....................................

......................If the starting position of the rotor is aligned too close to the #1 position on the cap. Thus, when you add 27 degrees, you are over 1/2 way to the next cylinder in rotation, and all kinds of weird things happen.................................
Click to expand...


All I want here is the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that the rotor does not change position in relation to the plug towers as the mechanical advance operates AT THE TIME THE SPARK FIRES. What this means is, that if the rotor tip is barely in alignment with the plug tower, corner to corner at say, initial timing, then with mechanical "all in" the ROTOR AND TOWER will still be at the same alignment so far as mechanical is concerned.

If you agree with that, then OK
 
See pics below
 

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If the balancer is aligned with TDC compression and the reluctor point is as shown, I'm 90° sure the distributor drive is one tooth off (retarded).
 
67Dart273 said:
WITHOUT KNOWING which hole the no1 wire is in those pictures show nothing. What you need to do is this:

Put the marks on what you believe the timing to be set at

Carefully scribe directly under the no1 plug tower, remove the cap, and put a small file mark to match on the top rim of the distributor. THEN take a picture of the dist. with the timing marks at whatever you believe the timing "is," 10BTC etc

Each reluctor represents 90* of crank rotation. This means, for example, in your first picture with the marks at TDC, AND DEPENDING UPON which tower the no1 wire is plugged into, either the timing is about 15 BTC or way WAY after TDC, probably as much as 50 degrees.

You can tell this by looking at the reluctor tips. Each tip represents 90* of crank rotation. This means if you "eyeball" 1/2 way between, that's 40-45* advance/ retard, depending on what "hole" you are "in."

In this case, we are talking about maybe 1/4-1/3 between.

WE NEED TO KNOW what hole no1 is in for certain.

You might want to use a piston stop to be sure the timing marks are correct, know how to do that?

You should be able to "set up" the engine with no1 ready to fire, the timing marks wherever you want the timing (10-15 BTC, etc) and just set the dist. in with the reluctor pointing to the middle of the pickup. Make sure the rotor points to where no1 is plugged in. With that setup, the engine should fire right up with no fuss at all.

How about mechanical advance, have you revved it up to see what you have for total advance?
Click to expand...

In the pics, the rotor is pointing to number one. Number one is almost center on the cap pointing at the front of the vehicle. In the pics I had the timing marks set at exactly zero. I found it odd that the reluctor didn't line up as well. You have to remember ... this motor ran perfectly before I put the cam in. It was a daily driver with this distributor. After the cam, it ran perfectly until I washed the engine compartment. I find it hard to believe that I have it installed incorrectly and it ran well before. I just know this is going to end up being something simple and I will be slapping my forehead when it gets figured out.
 
Funny thing I forgot to mention earlier. I was rechecking voltage at the coil and checking resistance on the ballast resistor today. I was lightly leaning on the brake booster and thought I felt a tingle. Just out of curiosity I touched the positive tip of my voltmeter to the booster and got more than 10 volts. I couldn't find a chassis ground anywhere. I ran a makeshift ground and the voltage dropped to less than 7 volts. I need to run a few more grounds to clear out this voltage.

Okay, when I timed it to what I assumed was BTDC, I assumed that because I turned the rotor clockwise to bring the marks to where I have them. Being a clockwise rotating dizzy, and rotation retards, I was retarding the timing and I assumed that would bring it BTDC, not ATDC. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Could the distributor drive be a tooth off as Moper suggests? That would be extremely easy to fix. And I would love an easy fix!
 
Jimmyray, you are correct. That is #1 and I have checked the firing order no less than 10 times. Let me ask this ... the timing tab is hard to see, but as most tabs it has marks such as 20 - 10 - 0 - 10 - 20. I assumed BTDC is on the passenger side of zero and that is where I set the timing. Is this correct? Also, in these pics I had the timing marks at precisely zero. I thought the reluctor should have been lined up with the pick up.
 
I hate to change gears so suddenly, but...

I watched your you-tube videos to get a idea, and i saw the plug wires. Not a good view, but they look like trouble. Wires should be pretty much the exact length, seperated, and not touching any metal. I would bet you are cross-firing at random. When they were wet at the car wash, it got worse.

You said the wires were new, so how were the old wires routed? Similar? You may have had worn wires with the old set, and the new wires are too long, causing them to bunched together and be bent, in turn misfiring.

I have a set of cheap wires on my Mirada, and they will ground on the valve cover, the air cleaner, and each other. I really have to keep them off of everything.

I would correct the wire situation before doing anything else!

See pics from my Duster for reference.
 

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If you have voltage here and there on what should be non-energized parts, you found the problem. Disconnect the bulkhead connector and see it it's full of water. Same with the engine harnes connector. If you have brake cleaner or shop air, blow the connectors out and let them dry well. Then stick some di-electric grease inside the female connections, and reconnect. See if that makes it go away. Also, there should be grounds from the cowl to engine, and engine block to frame.
 
I didn't read the whole thread but the very first I'd look after a car wash would be the dist cap...I bet it shows a crack in between two contacts ...
 
Having the oil pump drive gear a tooth off really does not matter, because you can rotate the distributor to compensate. However, the general rule about pointing to the front-most drivers intake bolt will be rendered moot, and if it is off on the wrong direction, it may limit your timing adjustment as the vacuum canister may hit the firewall.

Interesting point about the brake booster being energized. Does not make sense, though, since it is grounded to the body, which is grounded to the battery. You would have a closed loop, and something should be smoking!

Where was the negative tip of the voltmeter grounded?
 
The body was not grounded to the battery. The negative cable runs to the engine block, and nowhere else. Going to run more and better grounds. It changed nothing after I installed the one yesterday.

Jimmyray, the wires are routed through a wire loom at the point you are pointing at. I mounted one on the shock tower temporarily for the exact reason you speak of. They are all separated. Long, yes. Same as the originals that ran perfectly. I have a pre-made set that is shorter that I haven't installed yet.
 
sorry but no ones mention it could be a bad spark plug

he said every thing was find until he wahs the engine compartiment
thats right???
look like a bad spark plug to me or bad cap

run pretty good until he load the engine
look like a bad plug to me

is it a dual exhaust car?
ask someone to look on each side it back fire (driver or passenger)
so will know on wich side you have a problem
`
after that you only have 4 cylinder to look at
does it have headers??

if so take a plastic cap from a spray paint
rub it on the headers tube it will show you wich cylinder doesnt fire all the time and cause the back firing the tube will be colder and the plastic cap aint gonna melt as fast

sheap laser thermometer if you prefer

a crack spark plug will do the exact same problem as he have

if you wanna go a little further after looking at what I just said put salt in a spray bottle and hade water to it

at dark spray the wire and cap with this mixture I dont know why putting water and salt conduct electricity much more and you will see if the wire or cap are faulty

alwais begin with the cheaper parts and easiest test

aint cost a bunch and make quick test

my 2 cents

Bob
 
Success! I decided to get by on only 4 hours sleep and work on this baby for a few hours before work today. I put it at #1 TDC and aligned the timing marks to zero. I pulled the dizzy, turned the gear so that the #1 was pointing at the first driver's side intake bolt and reinstalled. I took off my brand new Accel plug wires and installed the cheap $13 set that O'Reilly's had in stock. I reached in and touched her off and it fired immediately and runs smooth with no backfiring. I warmed it up and tried to time it, but damned if I can get the timing mark to show. I ran out of time and timed it by ear. Test drive had low end power and definite lack of mid range power. I need to chalk up the timing mark and try to get it timed properly. Thanks for all the help everyone! I just knew it would be something simple in the end. What I have into it:

Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, ignition module, ballast resistor, hours of cussing and swearing, frustrations galore, and high blood pressure.

Sadly, the very first thing I changed was the plug wires.

Thanks everyone! You have all been a great help and gave me lots to think about. I learned quite a bit on this thread. You guys are the best!
 
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