Power advantage between Ford 351, Mopar 340 and Chevy 350??

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James Clews said:
Maybe that is true in the states but in Aus we only had clevelands from about 1971 all in 4 barrel form with 351 and 302 but they were assembled locally with a hybred cyl head that was half way between a 4V and a 2V open chamber head and they were gas guslers with poor performance. I had cop cars for years and my VJ Charger with 265 hemi 2 barrel four speed was a lot faster than my Falcon 351 4 speeds and used half the fuel doing so. My charger ran 15.7 stock and just by putting a 600 holley and extractors( Headers) it ran 14.7 qtrs all day long.
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Typical Aussie Valiant wanker.. :)
Where were the Valiants in touring car racing???
******* nowhere..
That's why Ford and GM outsold them. That's why Valiants are always at the bottom end of the desirable second hand car market here.
Those K10 police cars were not that reliable.. Plenty of broken parts at the workshop from the Police trying to "catch" people.
Back in the day, when we were street racing in Sydney,( 1980's onwards) no one was blowing anyone away with a Valiant..Let alone a 6 cylinder, which isn't even a "Hemi", just a Marketing trick LOL!!
Cleveo's have more canter on their valves than those.
Valiant owners here love to create their own legends..LOL
 
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RAMM said:
The Aussie's had the best of both worlds with the smaller 2V port and nice tight chamber. The 4v stuff was just BIG. J.Rob
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A lot of those heads were getting shipped to the States at one time.
A standard speed trick is to drop the 302 Cleveland head straight onto the 351.
 
i read through the 1st two pages is all..... But other things come into play as well, such as rod length, rod angle, etc
 
Bakerlite said:
Typical Aussie Valiant wanker.. :)
Where were the Valiants in touring car racing???
******* nowhere..
That's why Ford and GM outsold them. That's why Valiants are always at the bottom end of the desirable second hand car market here.
Those K10 police cars were not that reliable.. Plenty of broken parts at the workshop from the Police trying to "catch" people.
Back in the day, when we were street racing in Sydney,( 1980's onwards) no one was blowing anyone away with a Valiant..Let alone a 6 cylinder, which isn't eveHemi", just a Marketing trick LOL!!
Cleveo's have more canter on their valves than those.
Valiant owners here love to create their own legends..LOL
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Well I suppose you are one of those GM Wankers that we had here in the seventies that I used to spank there arses with my K10 charger and then with my 340 six pack That used to embarace down at brickies. I remember racing a work over 350 monaro and spanked him then running a worked over HO Falcon beating him too. They would not run a Norton Commando with a weber on it so I ran it and beat it by more than I beat the cars but I suppose this was just a Valiant owner dreaming?
 
In the early seventies we had a XY GTHO Falcon that had 4V heads, solid cam, 780 holley carb and headers with a 3.55 diff ratio and it only ran 14.8 sec qtrs . One guy had a GT and it would run mid thirteens and was a match fo,r my charger so I asked him why was his fast when all the others were slow? He said the first thing that I did was remove those bucket port 4v heads and put a set of 2v closed chamber heads on and it then became a weapon! Yes those 4v heads will make great power at the top of the rev range but lack air speed down low,so are very inefficent on a street car.
 
Any engine build is all about the combination. Huge, high flowing heads are dogs if the rest of the build can’t support them. It doesn’t matter who the maker is.
 
James Clews said:
Valiant owner dreaming?
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You just have to take a look at Australia's toughest road reliability trial, Bathurst, to see what's what.
It's all documented in the history books.
Wish I had a few stories about blowing off some wog chariots , but I never saw any out cruising for a bruising...
Mind you, they did top class burnouts..
 
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justinp61 said:
Any engine build is all about the combination. Huge, high flowing heads are dogs if the rest of the build can’t support them. It doesn’t matter who the maker is.
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A friend of mine builds the odd 4V Clevo. I once mentioned the issues with the heads, he just laughed and said "more cam required"..LOL
 
Bakerlite said:
Better cars, thankyou. And you don't own the world..
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Better than what? The other cars available on your island? Okay.

Own the world? No. Saved it? Yes. Including Australia in 1942 when the U.S. Navy stopped the Japanese invasion fleet at Coral Sea. You're welcome.
 
Richard Holdener made a pretty cool comparison between Mopar 340/Chevy SB/Ford Cleveland engines:


The numbers, at least at WOT, favor the Cleveland.
 
Bakerlite said:
A lot of those heads were getting shipped to the States at one time.
A standard speed trick is to drop the 302 Cleveland head straight onto the 351.
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Yup and unlike our BOSS 302 head, the 302 Cleveland heads require no cooling passage mods.
 
S'cuder said:
Better than what? The other cars available on your island? Okay.

Own the world? No. Saved it? Yes. Including Australia in 1942 when the U.S. Navy stopped the Japanese invasion fleet at Coral Sea. You're welcome.
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Well a production Falcon with a 351 clevo is better than one without one. :) Guess you couldn't work that one out.
LOL.. you saved the world... hahahah what a wanker..
Funny because that's what the French think when it comes to your country, and saving you from the Brits..
You were only in the Pacific trying to save face for that Pearl harbor disaster and your own self interests. Up until that point, you hadn't lifted a finger to help anyone with boots on the ground, in a war that had been raging for years.
That war was a team effort, everyone lost people, and selfish, blowhard comments like yours just insult and belittle those who died for their countries..
 
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Bakerlite,
You say it is all in the history books. Try reading one sometime.....
Fords had factory backing & factory teams, separate factories where the race cars were prepped. Ferd brought Al Turner from the US to head up the race teams.
Chr did NOT have factory race teams & provided little support, their drivers were privateers.
In NZ, where it was a more level playing field, the Chargers dominated.


The 351s were a failure at Bathurst in stock form. GM & CHr were not.
The massive main brgs caused engine blow ups. Not until many oiling modifications were done, could a 351 C finish a race, let alone win one.......
The most well known Ford racer in this country was a Canadian who settled here, Allan Moffat. Of the 351c, he said: they blow up on the starter motor...
The 351 4V was a failure; it was a failure as a race engine & a failure as a street engine.
Apart from the race failures in road racing, Ford stupidly put a severe flow restricting bump in the exh port. Drag racers of the day such as Bob Glidden used to slice a 1" thick section off the exh side of the head & replace it with a 1" alum slab that re-directed the exh upwards for more flow.
Trans am racers filled the int port floors with Devcon because the huge ports were sluggish. The GTHO phase 3 here was beaten over the 1/4 mile by the Charger with the 265 with triple Webers.
 
Refresh my memory.. how many Australian Touring Car Championships did Valiants win?
How are those Valiants going in the old Muscle Car Masters series?
I'm a Chrysler guy, but I won't let that blind me from their shortcomings.
 
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Don't know, probably none. Ferds only won when the engineering faults were fixed with factory backing, money & engineers; without that they would have won a big, fat...zero.
Another problem was the large two piece 2.19" int valve. Many a time at the old Castlereagh dragstrip I would see a 351C going home on a tow truck after dropping an int valve. The heavy valve combined with the 1.73 rocker ratio reqd very strong valve springs......which two piece valves do not like.
 
Bakerlite said:
A friend of mine builds the odd 4V Clevo. I once mentioned the issues with the heads, he just laughed and said "more cam required"..LOL
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...and that's exactly what they need, yet it falls on deaf ears.
 
Bewy said:
Don't know, probably none. Ferds only won when the engineering faults were fixed with factory backing, money & engineers; without that they would have won a big, fat...zero.
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Yep, dedicated to racing and saw the merit in it. GM did it too. Limited edition, homologated for racing models .
Chrysler could have had some good stuff, if they had bothered to try a little harder, but they were more interested in Government, fleet sales and tax breaks.
Just a better optioned V8 engine and 4 speed would have been a good start.
 
PHR tested the SB engines & published the results in the Feb 69 issue. The reason for the testing was to see if the engines produced the adv hp. So engines were removed from factory stock cars & dyno tested.

Only one engine did....the 340. Not only did it produce the adv #, it made 20 hp more! 295 v 275 adv.
Here are the others: adv, measured hp

Olds 350 W-31 325, 280
Pont 350 HO 325, 255
Chev 350 300, 240
Ford 351 290, 210

The 351 is probably a Windsor, still finished last...
The writer commended how flexible the 340 was, could rev to 6500 without valve float & commented on how C had got the parts combination correct, including port size. A lesson for Ford in there...
 
Bewy said:
Yep, agree with that. Chry had a great product in the 340.
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Back in the 90's my old grocery getter VG 770 318 hardtop ran 14.1 at Eastern Creek with nothing more than a 208@50 .420 lift Speedpro cam, 360 exhaust manifolds, dual exhaust, Street Dominator manifold, 750 Vac sec Holley, 904 (stock, no shift kit) and 3.7 gears.
Just stuff I had laying around. Would have went a little quicker if I had bothered to tune it better.
The rest of the motor was factory stock.
So getting those factory cars to go better was not a real stretch.
 
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Bewy said:
PHR tested the SB engines & published the results in the Feb 69 issue. The reason for the testing was to see if the engines produced the adv hp. So engines were removed from factory stock cars & dyno tested.

Only one engine did....the 340. Not only did it produce the adv #, it made 20 hp more! 295 v 275 adv.
Here are the others: adv, measured hp

Olds 350 W-31 325, 280
Pont 350 HO 325, 255
Chev 350 300, 240
Ford 351 290, 210

The 351 is probably a Windsor, still finished last...
The writer commended how flexible the 340 was, could rev to 6500 without valve float & commented on how C had got the parts combination correct, including port size. A lesson for Ford in there...
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Talking about Fords, in one of his latest videos, Vizard has a good story about Erson and doing cams for Fords factory performance parts division.
 
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