School me on new gen hemis

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Joe Dokes said:
Oil squirters can be a real advantage in a boosted engine. In the final years of the air cooled 911s oil cooling provided nearly 40% of the total cooling for the engine. Clearly the water cooled hemi doesn't require this level of oil cooling but the spraying the undersides of the pistons with oil would reduce the chance of detonation which is particularly important boosted applications.

I wonder if you could drill and tap the 5.7 block for squirters, and if it would be worth the effort.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

I thought I read somewhere that the squirters impede oil flow in the galleries?
 
Rat Patrol,

I haven't hear anything about the squirters impeding oil flow to the bottom end. I did read an extensive discussion regarding the oil squirters. It appears that early stroker kits, especially the 4.050" and 4.080" ones required the elimination of the squirters as the piston skirt would run into the squirter. As a result many argued that the squirters weren't really needed anyways.

Others however argued that the squirters were important, particularly in boosted applications, even when using forged aftermarket pistons. For example, the stock Chevy LS9 uses forged pistons and squirters.

Later stroker kits have notched the pistons so that the squirters can be used.

You can see a pic of the notched piston here:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/Nov807008.jpg

The thread also discussed the oil system and the fact (belief?) that the factory oil system on the hemi pushes a lot of oil and adding a high volume oil pump can lead to catastrophic oil starvation. As a High Volume pump will pump so much oil up into the heads that the oil pump can suck air. Thus if you are going to run a high volume oil pump, you need to run a larger capacity oil pan.

Yet another article on hot rodding a hemi:

[ame]http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/HemiTechArticle.pdf[/ame]

Here's the thread that discusses the squirters:

http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41618

Anyways, If you can find the discussion regarding Hemi oiling please post. I'd love to read it.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
I believe the 6.1 pump was designed from the get go to work with oil jets/squirters. In a 5.7 I think it would do more harm than good. I know people do it but I would'nt.
 
6.1 oil pumps are commonly used on 5.7 build ups. No spacers needed. It's like putting a high volume pump on the old school engines.

I think people sometimes confuse the term SRT Hemi with 6.1 Hemi, when 6.4 is now entered into the mix. Virtually everything is bolt on interchangeable between the first gen 5.7 and 6.1, whereas the Eagle and Apache engines are quite different from the engines they replaced. Don't get me wrong, as things like combustion chambers and ports are different between the first 5.7 and 6.1, but everything will still bolt up between them...
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with adding a high volume pump to a 5.7L Hemi, I believe the issue is that it might suck the oil pan dry before oil can work its way back to the pan. So the lesson is to make sure you have a large enough sump if you plan on using a high volume pump.

This might be particularly important for those of us doing the swap it is my belief (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Milodon pans actually reduce the oil capacity by about a quart. Thus adding a high volume pump while simultaneously reducing the oil capacity of the motor might not be the best thing to do.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
General opinion amongst the 9 sec crowd on Modern Mopar forum is that if you are going to spin a 6.1 at or above 7000 rpm regularly - then an extra capacity pan or accusump is really a must.
 
Joe Dokes said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with adding a high volume pump to a 5.7L Hemi, I believe the issue is that it might suck the oil pan dry before oil can work its way back to the pan. So the lesson is to make sure you have a large enough sump if you plan on using a high volume pump.

This might be particularly important for those of us doing the swap it is my belief (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Milodon pans actually reduce the oil capacity by about a quart. Thus adding a high volume pump while simultaneously reducing the oil capacity of the motor might not be the best thing to do.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

Hi Joe
I have a different perspective. You can only force so much oil through an engine. Installing a HV pump will not change that. The additional oil sucked up by the HV pump simply spills through the relief valve straight back to the sump. The only way to force more oil through the engine is to increase the pressure via the relief valve spring tension.
Jim
 
Joe Dokes said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with adding a high volume pump to a 5.7L Hemi, I believe the issue is that it might suck the oil pan dry before oil can work its way back to the pan. So the lesson is to make sure you have a large enough sump if you plan on using a high volume pump.

This might be particularly important for those of us doing the swap it is my belief (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Milodon pans actually reduce the oil capacity by about a quart. Thus adding a high volume pump while simultaneously reducing the oil capacity of the motor might not be the best thing to do.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

I think the Milodon is still fairly close to factory size. I'm pretty sure I remember dumping around 10 quarts in it on intial fill. Doesn't looks like it would hold it, but I just kept going until the dipstick read correctly.
 
I believe (not 100% confirmed because the Milodon website is a little unclear) The stock capacity of the 5.7 and 6.1 motors is 7 quarts six in the pan + 1 in the filter. The Milodon oil pan PN 31000 has a 6 quart capacity, whether that is 6 in the pan +1 in the filter or 5 in the pan +1 in the filter is unclear.

Milodon also sells an oil pan PN 31003 that has wings that Appears to increase the capacity by about a 1-2 quarts. Milodon doesn't even list an oil capacity. GRRR. So this one could be 6+1, 7+1 or even 8+1.

As for putting 10 qts in your car upon start up. That seems like a lot, but who am I to argue. With a remote oil filter and perhaps oil cooler ten quarts is probably not unrealistic. From your description it sounds like the Milodon pan PN 31000 has a capacity of at least six quarts meaning 6+1. Which would confirm your statement that the Milodon Pan is close to the factory size.

One thing to keep in mind, particularly for those who plan to run a flying mile or road race the car, is that oil coolers, lines and remote filters DO NOT INCREASE the capacity of your oil system.

Be clear that extra filters and/or coolers do not add any oil to the engine's sump capacity. What oil is added to fill them always remains in that device and is not an additional supply for the engine's higher RPM needs that is the job of the larger sumps.

So I would agree with Rat Patrol that those planning on spinning the snot out of their motor should invest in a higher capacity pan. I'd get at least the 31003 Pan.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Joe Dokes said:
I believe (not 100% confirmed because the Milodon website is a little unclear) The stock capacity of the 5.7 and 6.1 motors is 7 quarts six in the pan + 1 in the filter. The Milodon oil pan PN 31000 has a 6 quart capacity, whether that is 6 in the pan +1 in the filter or 5 in the pan +1 in the filter is unclear.

Milodon also sells an oil pan PN 31003 that has wings that Appears to increase the capacity by about a 1-2 quarts. Milodon doesn't even list an oil capacity. GRRR. So this one could be 6+1, 7+1 or even 8+1.

As for putting 10 qts in your car upon start up. That seems like a lot, but who am I to argue. With a remote oil filter and perhaps oil cooler ten quarts is probably not unrealistic. From your description it sounds like the Milodon pan PN 31000 has a capacity of at least six quarts meaning 6+1. Which would confirm your statement that the Milodon Pan is close to the factory size.

One thing to keep in mind, particularly for those who plan to run a flying mile or road race the car, is that oil coolers, lines and remote filters DO NOT INCREASE the capacity of your oil system.

Be clear that extra filters and/or coolers do not add any oil to the engine's sump capacity. What oil is added to fill them always remains in that device and is not an additional supply for the engine's higher RPM needs that is the job of the larger sumps.

So I would agree with Rat Patrol that those planning on spinning the snot out of their motor should invest in a higher capacity pan. I'd get at least the 31003 Pan.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

Yeah, it seems like the capacities of pans are not that well documented, at least when I first did my swap. I could hardly find info on a stock pan even. The general consensus was just "fill until the dipstick reads full". It's been some time since I have changed the oil, so I'm not really sure how much I put in. The Indy manifold also sucks for filling because all you get is a 1/4" hole to try to dump however many quarts through. 7 seems closer to what I remember putting in now that I think about it with the standard Milodon pan. I do have a remote filter setup that probably uses a slightly larger filter than stock, so I may have gained an extra half quart or something over the factory capacity as well.
 
I called the milodon tech line a while ago with the oil capacity question. I was told 6qts plus the filter for the swap pan.

Joe
 
Rat Patrol said:
General opinion amongst the 9 sec crowd on Modern Mopar forum is that if you are going to spin a 6.1 at or above 7000 rpm regularly - then an extra capacity pan or accusump is really a must.
Click to expand...

I researched this and posted this on Modern Mopar Forum based on a conversation with Stanton motors:

Here's what they said:
-The original problem with the drag pak motor is they were not built to be raced as delivered. Page 12 says the motor needs to be taken apart and built to customer spec (oh yeah, he quoted it to me). Also, he commented that the turnover on drag pak racers was like every 6 months they had a new group of racers replacing the old group.
-The stock 6.1 crank being cross drilled is fine, that is not the problem.
-The problem is starving the motor of oil
-In the drag pak cars, you have to run 11.5 quarts of oil total between the drag pak pan and an accusump (pan = 8 quarts, accusump = 3 quarts =overfill the pan). He mentioned if you're running without an accusump, you better up the pan capacity
-They have multiple drag pak cars running 8200-8600 rpm with stock 6.1 cranks, and he rattled off John?, John McCloud?, ATI?, Jason Batey?, and Roy Johnsons Dad (?) (5.7). Mentioned trouble free for ~2+ years

Rat Patrol said:
Quextion is - does the 310003 wings clear your headers - unfo on mine they wont
Click to expand...

I spoke with TTI. They indicated it would fit based on pictures (didn't have one to check with).

Joe Dokes said:
I believe (not 100% confirmed because the Milodon website is a little unclear) The stock capacity of the 5.7 and 6.1 motors is 7 quarts six in the pan + 1 in the filter. The Milodon oil pan PN 31000 has a 6 quart capacity, whether that is 6 in the pan +1 in the filter or 5 in the pan +1 in the filter is unclear.

Milodon also sells an oil pan PN 31003 that has wings that Appears to increase the capacity by about a 1-2 quarts. Milodon doesn't even list an oil capacity. GRRR. So this one could be 6+1, 7+1 or even 8+1.

As for putting 10 qts in your car upon start up. That seems like a lot, but who am I to argue. With a remote oil filter and perhaps oil cooler ten quarts is probably not unrealistic. From your description it sounds like the Milodon pan PN 31000 has a capacity of at least six quarts meaning 6+1. Which would confirm your statement that the Milodon Pan is close to the factory size.

One thing to keep in mind, particularly for those who plan to run a flying mile or road race the car, is that oil coolers, lines and remote filters DO NOT INCREASE the capacity of your oil system.

Be clear that extra filters and/or coolers do not add any oil to the engine's sump capacity. What oil is added to fill them always remains in that device and is not an additional supply for the engine's higher RPM needs that is the job of the larger sumps.

So I would agree with Rat Patrol that those planning on spinning the snot out of their motor should invest in a higher capacity pan. I'd get at least the 31003 Pan.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

I run the 31000 pan on mine with a 3 quart accusump. I haven't had any issues road racing or shifting at 7000+ (did spend ~10 seconds at 7000+ in 4th at the mile). You can put more than 6 quarts in the 31000 without it interfering with the crank, but YMMV. I used to run 7 quarts in the pan and whatever the accusump holds, but I've lowered it since then (maybe 6-6.5 in pan).

When I spoke with Milodon, they indicated the new roadrace pan was 7 quart capacity, vs 6 quart capacity of the 31000. FYI- The 31003 is actually 1/2" shorter than the 31000. The pickups are different as well.
 
I have the 31003, with wings, and it clears the TTI's fine. The K member may need slight trimming though.
 
72BBSwinger said:
I have the 31003, with wings, and it clears the TTI's fine. The K member may need slight trimming though.
Click to expand...

LOL- That's the main reason I didn't buy the 31003 - because I can barely get the motor in there in place with the 31000! I don't need the extra hassle of the 31003.

If the motor was going in and out from underneath every time, then that would no longer be an issue.
 
Im fortunate to have a 72 and older K and that alone affords alot more wiggle room with a Gen III. I really think a guy is way ahead to just scratch the factory mounts on any K member and make your own. It takes a ton of headache away on many levels...
 
Im not running TTIs and my pipes had to get past a steering box near the the bell housing - so the "winged" sump idea just wasnt workable.

I dont plan on spinning mine much past 7000 - but I see an accusump as cheap insurance.
 
Just went to the accusump website. I like the idea, my guess is that on a drag car that extra three quarts would provide a fair amount of insurance against oil starvation. Only problem is where to put it? Things are already pretty tight under the hood.

As far as TTI saying it will fit, after all the fitment issues I've been reading about, I'd take their belief that the 31003 to fit with a giant grain of salt.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Thanks to everyone for the info and opinions they have posted.

I've payed for an engine and it should be on it's way to me in a week or so.. From a member on this very forum!

I'm going with a 5.7, staying standard stroke.
Head and main studs, mls gaskets, h beams and forged pistons. A drop in cam and valve springs.
The miloden sump, jw bellhousing with a powerglide and a custom front motor plate.

Will have pics in my build thread when it arrives :)
 
Joe Dokes said:
Just went to the accusump website. I like the idea, my guess is that on a drag car that extra three quarts would provide a fair amount of insurance against oil starvation. Only problem is where to put it? Things are already pretty tight under the hood.

As far as TTI saying it will fit, after all the fitment issues I've been reading about, I'd take their belief that the 31003 to fit with a giant grain of salt.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...
It fits by a mile, the sump and wings are way forward and pose no issues with the headers.
 
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