School me on Stock Eliminator?

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rmchrgr

rmchrgr

Skate And Destroy
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Realizing there's plenty of forums that cover this type of subject, I thought I'd take a stab at it here.

I'm real interested in stock-class drag racing. My interest was really piqued recently by an Ebay auction for a Stock Eliminator Demon that's still going on right now. It's a killer looking car, and it really got me thinking about how to get a 'stock' car to run so quick.

I'm curious as to what's involved in Stock Eliminator engine programs and mostly what's involved in cylinder head prep beyond the obvious, such as the valve job and milling. What else is there to consider? What kind of other mods do class racers employ on their heads? How does a stock-lift camshaft work with this type of set up? What's the secret to the cam grind if you're only allowed to use the stock lift spec?

I'm thinking of trying to piece together a 340 "stock eliminator style" - stock heads, intake, TQ, etc. I think it's amazing what those engines can do. Some of those cars are fairly heavy with full interiors and such and run very quick times with wheels-up launches. I'm considering building a class-type engine to go bracket racing with then perhaps getting in to stock later down the road if I can get decent at it. Probably wouldn't happen for a while, but just thinking ahead.

I realize this may just be scratching the surface. I also don't think it's that far beyond the reach of the regular Mopar guy but really requires a special attention to detail and planning. Anybody school me?

Greg
 
The engines you see as stock are put together as a race engine, only using perfect stock parts. They are very expensive to build to be class competitive.
There are a lot of people here that know a lot more about it than me, I'm sure they'll help you out.
 
The problem & fun in Stock & Super Stock Eliminator is the restrictions they put on mods for these cars. While it's not like it used to be, these engines are faaaaaaaar from stock they are not quite as sophisticated as a Comp Elim. motor, but they arew DEFINITELY race pieces. The problem you'll have is that being so restrictive & competitive most racers won't reveal their trade secrets. our best bet is to look up the websites dedicated to these cars & start fishing. I can tell you certain part numbers are essential, certain parts are allowed superceded part numbers, tech DOES check weight on these cars after each qual. pass, and these classes, IMO, are more a technicans/engineers game because of the restrictions. There are some "gray areas" you can work in, like juggling weight in the car & such but all that stuff is what guys keep secret. For example --- rules require a stock LIFT camshaft, but I've heard of guys playing with the duraction to try to achieve more hp. I know of at least 1 S/S car that has 200lb. A-100 seats:toothy9: to make weight. See how all this goes? Your "Stock" Elim. car isn't really stock.
 
These guys have more tricks than you can put in 10 books. In the finals theyll drain all the oil but 1 qt. so the oil pump freewheels after takeoff and they loose the parasitic drag. Its one of the most sophisticated classes of sportsman racing. Ive heard of builders going thru 10 sets of rods to find the perfect 8. Good luck but this is a pro class without the glamour.
 
I raced stock elm many years ago it is a very hard class to do good in as the others have said you guard what works you do not break the rules but they can be bent and they do not run the class at the local strips on a regular bases we had some success after many year of work, had two engines for the car one for weekend races and one for points racing the rest of the car is more important than just the eng. if you are just starting out go bracket racing see if you like it and watch the stocker you may change your mind. we figured that it require 1 to 2 hrs maintance for each run we made in stock elm. and we had a crew of 4 guys working on the car hope this helps
 
and its alot more than just heads.
light weight internals on transmission,rear diff,gun drilled axles,driveshafts,wheel bearings,brakes,everthing is light weight and or high dollar..
rollerised busings in front suspension...ect..
converters,,are pretty specific.
lots of gear
they scream these motors...because the lift rule...they run lots of
duration..
and the best valve train you can buy..
the oil deal...would be more like a deep pan with 4.5 quarts...the rpm they run ...running them dry would be suicide..
not only this but the body type is very specific to the engine.
for instance you will see alot of 73 duster bodies because they are the only ones that ran 360 cui..
you couldnt run a valiant with a 340...or say..a 70 dart with anything BUT a 340 as that was the biggist motor that yr..
stuff like this..
but its neat..and amazing...thats for sure.
cheapst
 
I like the engineering aspect of it, it's gotta be way more satisfying to make power with factory parts rather than just thumbing through a catalog and ordering stuff. I myself wouldn't be looking for ways to cheat but just how to extract power from stuff within the confines of strict limitations. In my mind, it's serious blueprinting leaving no detail to chance. There's no real secrets, just the search for perfection. Things like reducing friction, rotating mass and windage are all the enemies of an efficient engine, I guess those would all be major factors to address. Clearances would really come into play, careful balancing, quench area etc.

I'm really looking for 'prevailing thought' about how to make this stuff work, like how to take advantage of camshaft duration when limited by the stock lift specs. What design aspects of the cylinder head are taken into account? How do you come up with cam specs for a given combo?

Burning questions, all this stuff.
 
Theres a guy over on moparts that runs stock eliminator,his name is Myron he can probably answer all your questions..i do know you need to run stock lift on the cam but the duration can be a lot higher then stock..
 
Stock or Superstock either one would be a riot but, also a bunch of work. Most of the racers in those two classes live it, everyday, 24hrs a day, looking for the best available use, of every nut and bolt on every little piece, of the car. Consumed is what you'd call it!!!!!!
 
Thanks for all the responses. I agree, Stock is a huge undertaking. I also agree that it's a 'pro' class without the glamour. The prep that goes into those cars is astounding, nothing is overlooked. Clearly chassis set up and converter choice also play a very large factor into how well these cars run. I think I may be wired like that but the knowledge and experience it takes is more than I have at the moment.

I guess my thought was that I'd like to see if I could build something at least resembling an engine that's run in class racing to see if I could do it successfully. There's no way I'd be able to just jump in and go racing, I'd be foolish to think I could. As Chreapstreet pointed out, I don't even have a car that would fit in any class using a 340.

If I do end up keeping the Valiant, I'll probably put a 360-based small block stroker in it and go bracket racing - clearly a more realistic plan than trying to do something that takes years of experience and big money to do right. Just had a wild hair and decided to throw it out there to see what people might have to say.
 
Here is what i recomend....
build the valiant...the way you want...
take some advice from the Stock class engine builders..as you build the motor/chassis.
use as many ideas as you can afford...
this will give you just as much fun researching and learning all the tricks..
apply all of this to your valiant and its combo..
with out all of the cash out.....involved in running the class...
as you learn a new trick employee it on the valiant..
you can still keep it a stock elem.theme...
and in a few yrs...youll have aton more knowledge...youll have had
real world experience with the valiant and as you move closer to
having what you need for the class....
you can just make a decision to go after it then....

buy the way 273 cars will blow your mind what they run....
best of luck
cheapst
 
Cheapstreet said:
Here is what i recomend....
build the valiant...the way you want...
take some advice from the Stock class engine builders..as you build the motor/chassis.
use as many ideas as you can afford...
this will give you just as much fun researching and learning all the tricks..
apply all of this to your valiant and its combo..
with out all of the cash out.....involved in running the class...
as you learn a new trick employee it on the valiant..
you can still keep it a stock elem.theme...
and in a few yrs...youll have aton more knowledge...youll have had
real world experience with the valiant and as you move closer to
having what you need for the class....
you can just make a decision to go after it then....

buy the way 273 cars will blow your mind what they run....
best of luck
cheapst
Click to expand...

Good advice, thanks for the reply!

I actually have considered a 273, they're cool engines, they got steel cranks and rev like crazy. Dave Koffel ran a Hilborn injected one in a '65 Belvedere A/WB. I think the Valiant might even fit into an actual class with a 273, but I'm not sure. The early A's are pretty light, it wouldn't take a whole lot to make it go.
 
I use to run Super stock with a Dart. You can go to NHRA.com and get the specs for your Valiant. As in what carb, what rods you can use and so forth and so on. Then start to bild the car as lite as you can, that way you can move weight around. Best thing to do is start bilding the car, and go bracket racing to start sorting the car out. You will need to become real good freinds with your engin, trans and converter guy. So get a rule book and start racing. By the way realy deep pockets help.:-D
 
This thread caught my eye as i build engines for stock eliminator and have run a 273 235hp in a 67 b'cuda, ran mid to low 12's @3250lbs. Currently building 66 valiant to race in super stock. The 273 idea is neet cuz its different from what everyone else is doing. Good advice from everyone. Its not cheap but then what is.
 
340srule said:
Theres a guy over on moparts that runs stock eliminator,his name is Myron he can probably answer all your questions..i do know you need to run stock lift on the cam but the duration can be a lot higher then stock..
Click to expand...

Myron is a member here also. He runs IHRA's Crate motor class.
 
victory273 said:
This thread caught my eye as i build engines for stock eliminator and have run a 273 235hp in a 67 b'cuda, ran mid to low 12's @3250lbs. Currently building 66 valiant to race in super stock. The 273 idea is neet cuz its different from what everyone else is doing. Good advice from everyone. Its not cheap but then what is.
Click to expand...

What class do you run? I'd be interested to hear about that combo if you'd be willing to give out info about it.

Not sure if there was a 273 "Commando" Valiant, that would be the most viable option (if it was allowed). Good info HERE.

Don't quote me, but I think '65 Valiants may be under 2,800 lbs w/o driver.
 
I'll run ss/k, minimum wt of 2760 plus mandotory 170 lbs for driver =2930. It's a 235hp combo w 4 spd. The index is 11.30, with the hp were making it should run mid to hi 10.s. I think the 235hp was available in 64-67. In stock elim. this would run in j/s or j/sa, the a being for automatic. J/sa index is 12.75. in stock, nhra has defactored the hp from 235 to 220 wich helps it be more competative in its class by making it lighter or moving it back a class. Keeps racers happy, if thats ever possible!? The 273 commando is the 235hp,there are some guys running the 2 brl version also, to slow for me.
 
If you're competitive in SS/K, let's assume you run almost a second under @ around a 10.75 E.T. That's A LOT of HP out of a 273, about 550 by quick estimate (assuming 20% driveline loss) and roughly 2 HP per cube. Those RPMs must be sky high, I'm guessing over 8K?

Realizing that S/S allows more engine mods than stock elim., I'd still like to know HOW THE HELL DO YOU COAX 550 HP OUT OF A 273???? :dontknow:

Calculating HP for J/SA looks like it's around 465 at the flywheel and 350+ at the wheels to run 11.75 or so. Not too shabby!

See, this is what's got my interest piqued on this subject, this is cool.
 
The hp #s aren't quite that high, remember there are other things at play to make the car go, not just hp. Rpms on mine will be around 8300.
 
victory273 said:
The hp #s aren't quite that high, remember there are other things at play to make the car go, not just hp. Rpms on mine will be around 8300.
Click to expand...

True, but still, you have to be making very good power to make a small cube engine run that quick!
 
Just got done running it in the shop, sounds awesome. Took some pics for you.

DSC00954.JPG


complete engine.jpg


inside.jpg


rolling.jpg


trunk.jpg
 
Awesome car man! Looks like a lot of very nice fabrication work and that a lot of time and effort has gone into setting up the chassis. I'm assuming it's a 'back half'-type car?

An hey, what kind of trans. is that? Looks like a Pro Stocker with that shifter setup.

Thanks for posting the images. I started a '273 race cars' thread in the racer's forum as well. Perhaps you could post some pics there too for all to see. I think your car is gonna blow minds, definitely not something you see every day!

Greg
 
Thanks,one of my customers did the cage, all we did in the back was tub to the frame rails with a caltrac and monoleafs. Had some 10" rims with 9"m/t's , thats about all that would fit, and a 9" ford, sorry, trans is a jerico. just got the fenders and doors hung tonight. Cant wait!!!
 
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