Seriously Need Help

[Garry]

Ok I have 64 cuda 273. Notice amp meter about 3/4 charge and bouncing with blinker and going below strait up at idle. Wow it acts like a generator does.
Headlights even dim then brighten slightly at acceleration ( back and forth). Tried two different new voltage regulators with no avail, Alternator putting out 40 amps,
tried a different one with no avail. By passed the amp meter, that’s not the problem. Electrical system holding between 13.5 and 14 volts. This isn’t normal is it?
Battery is good, checked all grounds and connections. I am at a loss.
Garry

 

[Dana67Dart]

It is relatively normal for the ammeter to bounce whan the blinkers are on.

My dart does that.

The turn signals cause an inrush of current, the voltage regulator reacts, increases the charging, by the time the alt boosts the output the inrush is done and the alt relaxes, rince and repete.

If you can make and post a video


Engine off...

New video by Dana Nance


Engine just started and running

New video by Dana Nance

 

[67Dart273]

Could be a problem and could be normal. My favorite thing to harp on, because it IS an actual thing, is voltage drop in the ammeter circuit and also in the ignition "run" circuit----which also powers and is the sensing circuit for the VR

And don't ignore the battery ground path

Problem areas in the ammeter circuit is any terminal or wire terminal end, including the eyelet at the alternator output stud, then the terminals in the bulkhead connector, the terminals at the ammeter and the ammeter itself.

In the ignition "run" circuit, it's the above, plus the terminals at the ignition switch connector, in the switch contacts themselves, and the bulkhead connector terminals where the dark blue "run" wire passes


You need to take voltage measurements under load and see if there is a big drop somewhere.

With the key in "run" and the engine stopped, stab one probe of your meter into the top of the battery POS post. Stab the other into the blue "run" wire feeding the coil ballast resistor. You should measure very little the less the better, and anything more than .3 (3/10 of one volt) chase it down. You can also use a relay to supply the "run" circuit and relieve the key switch and bulkhead connector of that load

Ground, same idea. With engine running/ charging on fast idle, check with everything shut off, and again with headlights, heater, etc powered on. Stab your meter into the top of the NEG battery post, the other into the VR mounting flange. HARD--to get through rust, etc. Again, the lower the reading the better, zero is perfect

 

[Syleng1]

A few more things to check:
A) belt tension
B) all your grounds for battery (battery to block. Block to car and car to battery) and VR ground.
C) connections of battery to gauge and the thru bulk fire wall connector.

Look- things were different 50-60 years ago. Don’t expect this car to act like a modern car unless you swap out modern parts. Crackbacked headlight relays help, not sure of your car or what you have done, but something’s todays seem odd but were normal back in 196x

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Switch over to a later model dual field alternator and a electronic voltage regulator. Your problems will be gone. Its only the addition of one wire. Here was a 63 that came in with your same issues. This fixed the issues it was having for the owner.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

Switch over to a later model dual field alternator and a electronic voltage regulator. Your problems will be gone. Its only the addition of one wire. Here was a 63 that came in with your same issues. This fixed the issues it was having for the owner.

View attachment 1716300101

View attachment 1716300103

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Nah, I think it was the chrome alternator that fixed the problem. The electrical system had to stand up and salute!!!

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Nah, I think it was the chrome alternator that fixed the problem. The electrical system had to stand up and salute!!!

Could be but from what I learned on my old Harley is that "Chrome don't get you home". I sold him the Alternator off a a stripper car. She had no need for it anymore, She was already bare and laid on the trailer.

 

[Mattax]

Notice amp meter about 3/4 charge and bouncing with blinker and going below strait up at idle. Wow it acts like a generator does.

Three quarter charge is a major problem. That's approximately 30 amps going to the battery. Something will overheat and start to melt if that continues for more than a couple minutes. The only question is which things go first.

It could be the battery charge is very low, or there is something wrong (or modified) in the electrical system.
ANother possiblity is high voltage causing battery to draw more current (over charging) but it seems you have disproven. The check which I think you have done is to measure voltage at the battery while the ammeter is showing 30 amps charge.

Headlights even dim then brighten slightly at acceleration ( back and forth). Tried two different new voltage regulators with no avail,

They will dim or brighten with voltage decrease and increase at the filiments. So this is a clue but alone isn't telling us much.
Another guess here: One or two of the field windings or diodes has failed. So now the alternator is producing a choppy output and insufficient to recharge the battery and run equipment (such as blinkers) at slow idle.

Alternator putting out 40 amps,
tried a different one with no avail.

How do you know it was putting out 40 amps?
If you mean it produced 40 amps at 15 V with the engine at 1250 rpm (FSM test) that's very different than if you measured 40 amps with a clamp meter while the engine was idling.There is no reason in the world for the alternator to put out 40 amps while idling other than the fact the battery is sucking 30 amps. Of the remaining 10 amps, 5 are typically what the field and ignition draw.

By passed the amp meter, that’s not the problem. Electrical system holding between 13.5 and 14 volts.

Of course not.
What the ammeter was showing you is that something on the battery side of the meter is drawing a lot of current. Dead battery, damaged battery (plate shorting), Electric fan added, or possibly even a wire shorting.

Battery is good, checked all grounds and connections.

How was the battery checked?

 

[Garry]

First of all I want to thank everyone for all the responses. Have not found the issue yet. When I do I will post it so everyone else can be aware of the
resolution . No upgrades to electrical system except for a replacement several years back to a electronic voltage regulator. everything has been ok till now.
Just tried USA made Echklin (as original ) voltage regulator, with no avail. Zero starting problems so I am assuming the battery is up to snuff, but am going to try a load test anyway. For some reason I am suspecting a problem with the alternator. however I did swap it out with another one I had and it didn’t help. Its wierd because the meter reads a constant 3/4 charge at high RPM ( 40/50 +mph) I don’t want to fry anything , and below half way at a very slow idle.
thanks Mattax your info is helpful.

 

[67Dart273]

Three quarter charge is a major problem.

How was the battery checked?

That's the thing, we don't know the battery state of charge nor it's condition

 

[Oldmanmopar]

A dual pole alt. will idle with no battery. A single pole alt. will only run with RPM's up with no battery. If your not worried about originality I would take the single pole off. Electrical things in the car will operate better. Wipers won't slow up or headlights won't dim at idle as well as other things like your ignition will work more efficiently with a dual pole system,

 

[Dana67Dart]

Battery is good, checked all grounds and connections. I am at a loss

Record a video.

You may be able to upload directly here or share a link to your video.

Or

Create a YouTube account, upload your video and post a link.

Words are great but pictures are worth their weight in gold

 

[Mattax]

thanks Mattax your info is helpful.

Your welcome.
I can not tell from your answer whether you appreciate that the ammeter indicates Battery Charge and Discharge.
Even though Chrysler labled them 'alternator', they do not show alternator discharge.
They only indicated electrons going into or out of the battery.
If the battery is discharging when the engine is running, something is wrong with the alternator or alternator circuit.

Look here. If you can follow a map then you can follow this.

For example in Dana's first video, the engine is off, the key is turned on, and the turn signal is on.
Take your finger and trace the path of electical flow from battery positive to the turn signal flasher.

Now lets say the engine is running and the alternator is producing power around 14 Volts.
Take your finger from the alternator terminal marked BATT and follow the path to black circle.
Continue along a path to the key switch. That's the path to everything requiring the key switch on. How much current went through the ammeter when power is coming from the alternator?
Go back to the junction represented by the black circle. Follow the route to the battery.
This is the electricity needed to recharge the battery

The BATTERY MUST BE CHARGED before going any further in testing and experimenting.
A low battery, or a damaged battery will draw excessive amount of current through the wiring.
This can confuse the diagonses and will cause damage to the wiring, the connections, the ammeter, and the battery.
The ammeter reads 40 amps Discharge to 40 amps Charge.
So if by three quarters you mean 3/4 of the way between center and Charge, that's about 30 amps. That's alot!

On this old charger 40 amps is the beginning of the red zone

Do not use the alternator to charge a battery that is severely discharged.
And considering that its not charging normally - we think that's a likely possibility.

Charging Battery with Alternator - Warning

We've discussed this here more than a few times. Usually about how easy it can be to cook the battery or overloading the charge wiring. Here's another reason. "Any attempt to charge a low battery by the alternator will result in stator windings burning out" ebay item # 222689173585 This is...

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[Garry]

wow Mattox ! more info Great !! , ok after checking all wire connections. I load tested the battery ( it’s one of those battery inside battery maintenance free vintage look alike) it come in at just over 300cca and is 9 years old. I put 10 amp charge on it for 2 hours as paperwork recommendations . seems to hold 13 volts and starts the car just fine. No upgrades at all to electrical system except the electric voltage regulator. Heated floor garaged car thats why battery has lasted so long. After checking wires and charging battery, alternator seems to have calmed down now, but ..... now the temp guage is not working at all ...uggh .. this car has a demon !!! Maybe its a dodge demon and not a 64 cuda ha ha.. do you think at this point I should replace the battery. as the paper work shows that battery had 640 cca new. I have an old school mechanic helping me ( he is my age 68yrs) and he is at whits end too. we did try putting a different battery in it when we were looking for the amp meter problem and it didn’t help. Gosh I hope some wiring isn’t now damaged somewhere . No wires felt hot while checking things. Going to try to chase down the temp gauge problem now. Man I hate theses electrical problems.

 

[Mattax]

seems to hold 13 volts and starts the car just fine

13 Volts is probabaly showing surface charge. It depends how precise the measurement is.
Immediately after charging a wet cell battery will show as much as 13.4 Volts but it doesn't represent the true charge state.
Wait a few hours or flip on the lights for 30 seconds and the energy level will drop to 12.8 Volts on a fresh battery. A bit lower on a used battery.

10 amps is still pretty high charge rate in my book. On a fixed setting charger I'd say 2 amps 6-10 hours or overnight. But I'm not an expert on batteries.

A shade tree way to load test the battery is to watch the voltage when starting. If it drops to 9.5 Volts the battery charge state was pretty low.

 

[Mattax]

If you've looked over for visual damage (loose connections, melted wires, etc) and eliminated meachnaicals such the belt slipping as a possibility, then I'm going to suggest doing diagnostics by putting loads through the circuits. One more mechanical check. See if the alternator output stud is loose.

Begin with a charged battery. (Write down the voltage.)
A. Check for damaged wire or connection. (this all assumes factory wiring)
1. From Battery to Main splice.
a. Turn on the parking lights. Read the current discharging through the ammeter. Measure the voltage: across the battery, from the battery positive to ground, from alternator output (Batt terminal) to ground. Direct check by measuring voltage from battery positive (meter's red lead) to alternator output stud (meter's black lead).

b. Increase the load. Turn on the headlights and repeat the measurements. Ammter should show about 10-12 amps. And if the voltage differerece between the battery positive and the battery connection on the alternator is zero, or close to zero that's good.

Next. Knowing the line from the battery to the mainsplice is good, we can move on.
2 Circuit considtion from mainsplice through key switch to regulator.
a. Write down Battery Voltage. Recharge if needed.
b. Turn key to run. don't start the engine. Check the ammeter. it should show about 5 amps discharge.
Measure voltage: across the battery, battery to ground, at ignition terminal on voltage regulator.

If voltage at the regulator is less than at battery, then measure voltage difference from battery positive to: ignition terminal on regulator, then to the ignition wires connection at ballast resistor (pair of blue wires). Some voltage drop is expected but it should be small.
The reason for direct voltage drop measurements between the power source and points in the current flow is twofold. One is to isolate losses in the wiring from losses in grounding. The other is to take advantage of the finer scale on older meters. Otherwise measuring to chassis ground is OK too.

If all that is good. Then its time to check the votlage regulation circuit and alternator.

A couple different routes that can be taken.
One is to examine the regulator and alternator.
The other is to live test.
If live testing, charge the battery, measure voltage, start the car and observe the ammeter and voltmeter.
Do the same voltage drop testing as with the engine off except know that the ammeter is only showing battery charging.
The difference is now the alternator is supplying system power. Both the ignition circuit (J2) and the battery line should be at alternator voltage. While the battery is getting recharged, the current flow will split at the main splice. It might half way to charge at first, but after a few minutes it should be zero.

The live test is looking for a fault in the alternator output line, or the regulator and alternator.
The regulator responds to the voltage at its ignition terminal.