Shift kits.. do you really need one????

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Used Transgo for years but found the fine tuning was becoming more and more frequent.
The overlap or tie-up, even with correct clearances at times took hours to correct.
Started using Superior Shift kits and was totally impressed.
They seem to have the done their homework... BTW Superior is AKA Fairbanks.
The shifts are nice crisp at normal throttle not annoying in traffic by any means but when you stand on it you know you have a shift kit..
If you have the power you'll break the tires loose on the 2-3 shift.

http://www.oregonperformancetransmi...OD&Category_Code=727SK&Product_Code=SUP-10430
 
So can you tell me what mods were included in this kit that may have differed from the TransGo ?
 
Bakerlite said:
I think I may not have made the reason for this thread clear. It's not about if you should have a shift kit, it's more about if you really need to use all the parts and do all the mods that the kit asks you do to, when you are building a trans from scratch.
The first part I'm looking at is the cup plug and it looks like if you were to use the correct selection of parts and clearances at build time then this plug would not be necessary..
It's easy to say.. " oh yeah, just stick a shift kit in it" but how many people really know exactly why they are doing these things.

As I said, so far, there are two parts I would use in the kit. That's the
New manual valve and the stiffer line pressure spring.
I'd like to discuss the rest of the parts and why we would use them..
I think it's a good topic and would give a different perspective on trans building..
Click to expand...

Put all of the parts in or don't put any in. There's been a lot of thought and testing into the kit. It's a system. I once had a guy come back to me complaining about the rotten kit I sold him and how it @#%^*@up his valve body. He ended up with 2nd, neutral, reverse, and park only. When I looked into the box he was returning, there were a lot of parts in it. I asked why he didn't install all of the parts as per the instruction sheet, and he told me his buddy (who wasn't a trans builder) said they weren't required. Unless you're a qualified transmission builder, or your "source of information is" and have an understanding of how the hydraulics work in a transmission why would you not install the kit as per the instructions. All kits work, some better than others, but all kit manufacteurs have spent a lot of time and money to make the kit work as it should.
just my $.25 worth
 
transman said:
Put all of the parts in or don't put any in. There's been a lot of thought and testing into the kit. It's a system. I once had a guy come back to me complaining about the rotten kit I sold him and how it @#%^*@up his valve body. He ended up with 2nd, neutral, reverse, and park only. When I looked into the box he was returning, there were a lot of parts in it. I asked why he didn't install all of the parts as per the instruction sheet, and he told me his buddy (who wasn't a trans builder) said they weren't required. Unless you're a qualified transmission builder, or your "source of information is" and have an understanding of how the hydraulics work in a transmission why would you not install the kit as per the instructions. All kits work, some better than others, but all kit manufacteurs have spent a lot of time and money to make the kit work as it should.
just my $.25 worth
Click to expand...
Sorry I don't agree, I think it's a better idea to understand how the trans functions and then select and fit the parts you need to allow the trans to function the way you want.
Just look at the Cup.. It's the perfect example of a piece that you may have to or not have to fit, It's also a piece that may not be the best size for your application or even the best way to reduce any bind up.. Because I see this as a fine tuning part, not just one you hammer into the hole and forget about.
Tell me Transman, have you ever just fitted a HP line pressure spring and drilled the sep plate on it's own? How much R&D stuff have you done on a Torqueflite with different springs and line pressures, pack clearances etc?
 
Bakerlite said:
So can you tell me what mods were included in this kit that may have differed from the TransGo ?
Click to expand...

Well... Both kits require drilling and installing updated springs so that part is essentially the same. The Superior kit supplies you with both Gov valves where as the Transgo you need to grind you own valve.There is just is more work with the Transgo to get the same results as you would with the Superior Kit. The Transgo offers a sub kit that allows you to make it a full manual Valve body. Most street / weekend strip racers don't use this.
Don't get me wrong both kits have their good points but lets face it everyone hears about Transgo even B&M has taken a back seat to them. But after years of using Transgo and countless hours of fine tuning them we decided it was time for a change.
Both have excellent Tech departments. Its just a matter of opinion and i personally prefer using the Superior / Fairbanks Kits.
 
Yes, this has become a very interesting subject for me.. It's been quite an eye opener as far as a total trans rebuild package goes and why certain parts are selected..
What sort of fine tuning were you doing?
 
Bakerlite said:
Sorry I don't agree, I think it's a better idea to understand how the trans functions and then select and fit the parts you need to allow the trans to function the way you want.
Just look at the Cup.. It's the perfect example of a piece that you may have to or not have to fit, It's also a piece that may not be the best size for your application or even the best way to reduce any bind up.. Because I see this as a fine tuning part, not just one you hammer into the hole and forget about.
Tell me Transman, have you ever just fitted a HP line pressure spring and drilled the sep plate on it's own? How much R&D stuff have you done on a Torqueflite with different springs and line pressures, pack clearances etc?
Click to expand...

I was never a builder, but put almost 30 years in the transmission business. There are areas that I'm very familiar with and others not so. I did years back put a TF-2 in a TF727, followed the instructions and all worked as I expected it to. If you really want to know the why of the cup, contact the tech line at Transgo, they've got the experts there that will advise you why.
There are lots of smart people that have experimented with transmissions and made them work, and by the same token there's a ton of transmissions in the scrap heap because somebody didn't understand the how and why of how a transmission and all it's components all work together. Ask any good transmission builder how many butchered transmissions he's seen during his career with work done by someone who lacks knowledge.
There are things I have no problem doing on my transmission/car, but there are areas that I'd sooner leave to the good folks that truly understand what's going on and have the expertice to correct the problem.
If you wish to experiment, by all means, go ahead and do it. If it works, let us know, and if your experiment works better than Transgo, let them know what you did. One builder I know sent an idea he had on improving a Honda to Sonnax. They responded back to him, thanked him for his ideas and I believe are now giving him credit (should ask him if he got any $$) for the idea in one of their kits..
 
Thanks, I am keen to experiment a bit with the trans I now have disassembled on my work bench. I just need to chase up the assortment of springs etc that I will need.
My main focus right now is on the 2-3 shift and how to get it working as it should with the least restriction ( cup size) added to the front clutch port as possible.
 
.............I have been using trans-go kits since the mid 80s and yes I have expiramented with different things and have found what works and what doesn't, but for someone that has limited knowledge I strongly recommend to get someone that knows what he/she is doing.......depending on how u want it to shift u can make it shift nice and firm without cranking up the line pressure without a shift kit....kim.........
 
Sorry kim.. Are you saying I have limited knowledge?
 
Bakerlite said:
Sorry kim.. Are you saying I have limited knowledge?
Click to expand...
Are you implying you have "un"limited knowledge? :prayer:

Ahem. Everybody has "limited" knowledge. That's why one of the things "smart" people with limited knowledge do when they want to "increase" their knowledge, is exchange "information" with other like-minded individuals in among other ways, web forums.
 
.......1st off I do not consider myself a so called expert, but that over a close to 30 year period of playing with these 727s and 904s I have a pretty good understanding of them........No that's not what I was saying.......I was generally speaking that when u start modifying things that whoever is doing the modification has a real good understanding of how things work, cause sometimes we can cause more problems or I should say different problems than what we had to start with or didn't have to start with.......1 thing I do find is that a lot of tranny problems are caused by not having the proper kd linkage or cable and not set properly even though they think its right.........kim.....
 
340-4spd said:
Are you implying you have "un"limited knowledge? :prayer:
Click to expand...
No... Are you? Everyone can learn, just depends how much effort you want to put in,and how about a bit less wisdom from you and a little more technical offerings??? That would help everyone interested in this subject.
If you have not worked it out, this thread is about trying to understand a little bit more about this trans then just sticking in a shift kit,
and that's so everyone can benefit from it. After all... that's what we are all here for.
 
oldkimmer said:
.......1st off I do not consider myself a so called expert, but that over a close to 30 year period of playing with these 727s and 904s I have a pretty good understanding of them........No that's not what I was saying.......I was generally speaking that when u start modifying things that whoever is doing the modification has a real good understanding of how things work, cause sometimes we can cause more problems or I should say different problems than what we had to start with or didn't have to start with.......1 thing I do find is that a lot of tranny problems are caused by not having the proper kd linkage or cable and not set properly even though they think its right.........kim.....
Click to expand...
Well for someone who has a "pretty good understanding" you have not offered a single piece on information in this thread...accept how you have fitted kits in the past.
It's funny because when you try to get into the real nuts and bolts of how things work all of the usual forum experts just seem to disappear..
 
Bad Sport said:
Geez, I wonder why.
Click to expand...
Not me. It's a ridiculously simple answer to a simple question:

Do you really need a shift kit? Of course not. Duh.

Do you really want one? Of course you do, because obviously you wouldn't be asking the question if you had a built transmission, or knew how to build it yourself.

Now all you swingin' dicks go back to arguing about who has the longest shift prick.

Posted via Topify using iPhone/iPad
 
Bakerlite said:
Well for someone who has a "pretty good understanding" you have not offered a single piece on information in this thread...accept how you have fitted kits in the past.
It's funny because when you try to get into the real nuts and bolts of how things work all of the usual forum experts just seem to disappear..
Click to expand...

Because there are very few "real" experts here. Certainly none have appeared in this thread. I threw out what I know and have been experienced with better than 25 years, and as usual got shot down by one of the forum "geniuses". That's when I backed out of this thread.

Fact is, release time is crucial to how fast a Torqueflite shifts, but I will be damned if I will ever make that statement here again. Too many people wanting to puff up their chest and make the other guy out wrong.

Too many people take for granted that if you don't "know something and know it "their" way" that you're wrong.

Remember, Ford calls one thing by one name and Chrysler and everybody else calls it something else. Too many people here think their way is the highway. Makes me want to punch their fuckin teeth out.
 
Very interesting read guys! I have freshened a few flite's in my early days and installed a B&M shift improver kit in my 73 Challenger years ago. It really worked great. Easy throttle shifts were firm and open throttle shifts always barked 2nd..... I could also manual shift it from 1-2 and let it hang in gear (around 3000 rpm) and bump the Slapstick and bark 2nd. I can also say that the Mopar Slap Stick is the best automatic shifter! tmm
 
Very interesting read guys;

Some very good points were brought up, orifice cup plug in tf-2 kit is to delay 3rd apply; Yes; for correction of overlap on 2-3 shift Firmness of 1-2 shift is controlled by line pressure and band arm apply ratio; Yes; throttle pressure and line rise are criticle to shift feel so it is very important to set it correctly. As to the question of do you need to install the cup plug ; No; If you are able to set the intermediate band properly to obtain a near neutral 2-3 shift feel. All books and kits give you a set band adjustment for the int. band and tell you to follow all directions in kit because they know that this is a middle line and will result in a good shift feel under most ratio and pressure settings resulting in less complaints to manufacturer.
One if not the most criticle adjustment to torqueflights is the Int. band , to tight or to loose and you get bindup or flair on the 2-3 shift.

Adjust pressure regulator spring for shift feel, and band for shift quality, Throttle rod for shift timing and kickdown scheduling.

Happy tuning:
Lon Kopaska ( ATRA and AAMCO master certified rebuilder)
 
340-4spd said:
Not me. It's a ridiculously simple answer to a simple question:

Do you really need a shift kit? Of course not. Duh.

Do you really want one? Of course you do, because obviously you wouldn't be asking the question if you had a built transmission, or knew how to build it yourself.

Now all you swingin' dicks go back to arguing about who has the longest shift prick.

Posted via Topify using iPhone/iPad
Click to expand...
LOL. you seriously don't understand what this thread is about, do you?
Maybe if you spent a little more time reading it, instead of blowing your horn, then you might actually learn something..
 
RustyRatRod said:
Because there are very few "real" experts here. Certainly none have appeared in this thread. I threw out what I know and have been experienced with better than 25 years, and as usual got shot down by one of the forum "geniuses". That's when I backed out of this thread.

Fact is, release time is crucial to how fast a Torqueflite shifts, but I will be damned if I will ever make that statement here again. Too many people wanting to puff up their chest and make the other guy out wrong.

Too many people take for granted that if you don't "know something and know it "their" way" that you're wrong.

Remember, Ford calls one thing by one name and Chrysler and everybody else calls it something else. Too many people here think their way is the highway. Makes me want to punch their fuckin teeth out.
Click to expand...

Yes , I think release time is critical as well, Mopar had a bunch of different servo spring pressures as well as clutch spring numbers and leaver ratios.
I chose to talk about the cup first on purpose, because it is designed to cover up a lot of variables in the transmission, as well as a lot of trans variations over the years, and how can you do that unless it's by compromise???
By setting up the correct spring combinations and clearances I believe that you could do away with it, or at least not have such a narrow restriction.
It looks to me that most people just rebuild the trans with the springs they have, whether they are HP or passenger car ones, tighten the packs and pop in the plug because they are told to do it.
I think there has already been some good info brought forward in this thread.
It should be noted that these kits are designed for an already assembled transmission and that's not what I'm talking about here.
 
lkopaska said:
Very interesting read guys;

Some very good points were brought up, orifice cup plug in tf-2 kit is to delay 3rd apply; Yes; for correction of overlap on 2-3 shift Firmness of 1-2 shift is controlled by line pressure and band arm apply ratio; Yes; throttle pressure and line rise are criticle to shift feel so it is very important to set it correctly. As to the question of do you need to install the cup plug ; No; If you are able to set the intermediate band properly to obtain a near neutral 2-3 shift feel. All books and kits give you a set band adjustment for the int. band and tell you to follow all directions in kit because they know that this is a middle line and will result in a good shift feel under most ratio and pressure settings resulting in less complaints to manufacturer.
One if not the most criticle adjustment to torqueflights is the Int. band , to tight or to loose and you get bindup or flair on the 2-3 shift.

Adjust pressure regulator spring for shift feel, and band for shift quality, Throttle rod for shift timing and kickdown scheduling.

Happy tuning:
Lon Kopaska ( ATRA and AAMCO master certified rebuilder)
Click to expand...

Thanks, this is more good information. There are lots of people scared to play with the band adjustment, they don't realize it can be used as a shift timing tool, within reason.
 
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