shimming hydraulic roller lifters solid

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mderoy340 said:
I've disassembled my SFT EDM lifters and it is an empty hyd lifter with the DDM hole on the face. Lifter body, cup, and snap ring. The OEM hyd roller needle bearings are splashed oil as far as I can tell. I'm not sure how they would hold up with a solid roller. A tight lash SR might work. I'm on the fence about sticking with a SFT/EDM lifter or spending the big bucks for a SR setup on my street strip motor.
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If they are the same as a hydraulic, then what's to stop it from trying to pump up? Is removing the disc valve all it takes? That's what I've been getting at. That's why I don't think the idea to shim them solid is a good one. If the lifter continues to try to pump up, then surely sooner or later it will pop the wire clip out and come apart. The pump up part of the hydraulic lifter must be defeated.
 
RustyRatRod said:
If they are the same as a hydraulic, then what's to stop it from trying to pump up? Is removing the disc valve all it takes? That's what I've been getting at. That's why I don't think the idea to shim them solid is a good one. If the lifter continues to try to pump up, then surely sooner or later it will pop the wire clip out and come apart. The pump up part of the hydraulic lifter must be defeated.
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Well on the EDM SFT lifter the snap ring holds the cup in place and the EDM hole is constantly bleeding oil so no pump up happening there. If your using the AMC style pushrod oiling you also have another oil bleed.
 
mderoy340 said:
Well on the EDM SFT lifter the snap ring holds the cup in place and the EDM hole is constantly bleeding oil so no pump up happening there. If your using the AMC style pushrod oiling you also have another oil bleed.
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Yes, but is the enough NOT to pump up? I don't know. Also, we're leaving out of this discussion completely oil to the roller. It's been made a huge deal out of that a street roller has to have oil to the roller. So, why don't factory rollers have pressurized oil? Why is splash oil good enough for them and not a solid roller on the street? Are we bein bullshitted?
 
I have converted a few sets of hyd lifters to solid operation, as per my post earlier in this thread. Never had an issue.

If anybody is worried about the inner piston being able to pump up, the fix is veeery simple: grind a groove or file a flat on the side of the piston.
 
I know this is a fairly novel topic so I am interested overall.

What will be be end benefits of this undertaking? Would you be able to run these on a more aggressive profile? Is lifter pump up really a typical issue with these?
 
Mean416 said:
I know this is a fairly novel topic so I am interested overall.

What will be be end benefits of this undertaking? Would you be able to run these on a more aggressive profile? Is lifter pump up really a typical issue with these?
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I think the only benefit is making a "cheap" solid roller lifter.
 
my intention is to use the existing HR Cam with a little more stiffer springs on a offset rocker head. New Lifters would be the best solution of course, but if possible i´d like to modify the existing HR-Lifters - to save some money. I´ll take some pics of a disassembled HR-Lifter, maybe we can discuss better to put what stuff where. Thanks for the discussion!

Michael
 
Was just looking at prices... it gets pretty nuts.. full set on ebay for $289... upto 1500+ a set.. Is the power gain from solids justified for that kind of cost? or only if you are trying to get every last hp out? i can't see 1500 for 10hp is that's all it is
 
Icetech said:
Was just looking at prices... it gets pretty nuts.. full set on ebay for $289... upto 1500+ a set.. Is the power gain from solids justified for that kind of cost? or only if you are trying to get every last hp out? i can't see 1500 for 10hp is that's all it is
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....and those chinkese for that 289........I've emailed that seller and they SWEAR those lifters have pressurized oil to the rollers.
 
Icetech said:
Was just looking at prices... it gets pretty nuts.. full set on ebay for $289... upto 1500+ a set.. Is the power gain from solids justified for that kind of cost? or only if you are trying to get every last hp out? i can't see 1500 for 10hp is that's all it is
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It's more than 10 hp.

This is an expensive hobby. $1500 is indeed a lot but prices are up on everything and this is no exception.

Solid rollers allow much more aggressive lobes and more valvetrain stability at higher rpms that hydraulic can't match.
 
RustyRatRod said:
....and those chinkese for that 289........I've emailed that seller and they SWEAR those lifters have pressurized oil to the rollers.
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Yeah, i figured they would be unusable junk, just saw they were that cheap is all :)
 
Mean416 said:
It's more than 10 hp.

This is an expensive hobby. $1500 is indeed a lot but prices are up on everything and this is no exception.

Solid rollers allow much more aggressive lobes and more valvetrain stability at higher rpms that hydraulic can't match.
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K.. i didn't realize that solids used different cam profiles, thought it was just the lifter.. live and learn :)
 
Was looking at different brands and prices... Herbert $499 a set.. what surprised me was that herbert is still around, i honestly haven't heard that name in sooo long
 
Mean416 said:
It's more than 10 hp.

This is an expensive hobby. $1500 is indeed a lot but prices are up on everything and this is no exception.

Solid rollers allow much more aggressive lobes and more valvetrain stability at higher rpms that hydraulic can't match.
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When you understand how a hydraulic lifter actually works, you begin to see just how much variation there can be in lift and duration. They were never, ever, EVER invented for performance. No matter what people say, they are NOT a performance part. If people believe that, they're suckers for good marketing.
 
Icetech said:
K.. i didn't realize that solids used different cam profiles, thought it was just the lifter.. live and learn :)
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Oh no. Hydraulic cams have different ramps. "Quieting" ramps they are called.
 
Ah... looking at their cams i see why i haven't heard of them lately.. they seem to only make big boy cams :) I'm in the wading pool
 
Icetech said:
Yeah, i figured they would be unusable junk, just saw they were that cheap is all :)
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I'm unsure they are. They might be ok. They DO have oiling holes if you look at all the pictures.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I'm unsure they are. They might be ok. They DO have oiling holes if you look at all the pictures.
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Don't care.. not trusting the bearings or metal used... only motor i have ever had die was to a roller lifter coming apart (well after i sold the motor though) I would go nuts knowing i had cheap unknown stuff in there
 
Icetech said:
Don't care.. not trusting the bearings or metal used... only motor i have ever had die was to a roller lifter coming apart (well after i sold the motor though) I would go nuts knowing i had cheap unknown stuff in there
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I completely understand! you know the old saying. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
 
If you want to see the difference solid roller lifters vs hydraulic roller lifters can make on the same hydraulic camshaft grind, go watch episode 48 of Engine Masters.
 
[1] The pressure oiling to the rollers in a roller lifter is a marketing gimmick [ like MSD multi spark ] . It is an engineering FACT that ball & roller brgs survive on very minimal oiling. Some examples: wheel brgs, U joints, alt brgs. The lifters get plenty of oil slung off the crank & from the lifter bores.
Multi spark. I have read that when MSD [ Autronics, El Paso ] in conjunction with Chrys engineered the CD ign, it misfired at low rpms. That is because CD ign has a spark duration about 1/10th that of inductive ign, & at low rpms a long duration spark is needed. Some bright spark [ pardon the pun ] said: 'We will make it multi spark at low rpms'. So an engineering failure was turned into success with marketing hype.
[2] Both hyd & sol lifter lobes have clearance ramps to take up the clearance. Because the hyd cam has a hyd cushion, the ramps are shorter than a sol lifter lobe.
[3] Running solid lifters on a hyd cam has been done many times, including by myself. Zero problems as long as hot lash is kept tight. The effective duration [ & lift ] of the cam will be slightly shorter using solid lifters, but the idle & vacuum will be better. Whether a loss of performance occurs because of this will depend on the parts.
 
ok, here we go. This is a stock Magnum / late LA hydraulic roller Lifter. These actually came with my LA roller cam block and i used these quite a while, then i replaced all of them with new mellings.

So where to put shims to make it solid? any mod to the check valve in the plunger then necessary?

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For just on the cheap I can see. Wanting to squeeze every last bit? I'm surprised nobody has brought up the MASS difference between the two.
 
I wouldn't shim it. I think it's a bad idea. I would just defeat the pump up feature, remove the springs, get the right length pushrods and call it good.
 
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