Slant Six Dead Spot

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Cowboy

Surprisingly Not Banned
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Well... I got a poorly running slant that I'm at wits end with and ready to replace, but I'm still willing to give it a second chance. Maybe one of you fellas can help me. Please. No one else has been able to help or even try to explain it.

My '74 Duster has never ran right since I bought it. The engine isn't original and had been swapped in prior to my purchasing of the car. It is a 1977 Super Six out of I presume a Volare. It had a bad off idle hesitation that would kill the engine. I chalked it up as a carb issue and figured a carb rebuild would set it straight, it didn't. I've managed to decrease the size and position of the dead spot, but I can't get rid of it no matter what I do.

The back story:

The engine has had a complete rebuild. The rebuild wasn't initially intended but when I pulled the engine out to fix a bad rear main seal shortly after buying it I found cam bearing material all over the inside of oil pan. I installed federal mogul main, rod, and cam bearings. Cleaned up the cam, rebuilt the oil pump, polished up the cylinder walls, new gaskets, rings, timing chain, adjusted the valves, your basic rebuild. Everything was federal mogul or fel-pro, timing chain was a cloyes. Brand new ignition, plugs wires, cap, rotor, and vacuum advance. All Borg-Warner, and Autolite parts. The factory exhaust was replaced with 2 1/2 od pipe.

For the intake the studs are original, the intake hasn't been surfaced, but I pulled it out last week and inspected it. The gasket showed no signs of leaking. The egr had been wiped out prior to my purchasing the car. Someone had cut and beat out the wheel and flap inside the exhaust manifold and replaced it with a bolt and made a block off plate for the intake. For the intake stack everything was installed and torqued to Chilton's standards during my rebuild and the recent reinstallation of the intake.

The engine doesn't have a vacuum leak, it isn't sucking exhaust, the compression test was perfect, and the vacuum and mechanical advance are operating correctly. Mechanical this engine has nothing wrong! It just doesn't run right.

The engine has had six different carburetors on it now, ranging from new out of the box to rebuilt from the local scrapyard. The issue has remained constant through each carb swap showing it isn't the carb. It prefers a Motorcraft 2100 1.21 venturi (way too big, I know) with the timing advanced to 22 degrees.

To help the timing issue I hooked up an OSAC valve backwards, I was able then to bump the timing back down to 12 degress. This has helped more than anything. The dead spot is now around 30 mph or about 1/3 throttle, no longer off idle. It stumbles, coughs, sputters, and surges all over the place if you hold the throttle constant, but refuses to die. Simply letting up, or pushing the pedal down just a hair instantly overcomes this dead spot. It is the oddest thing I have ever seen.

The dead spot is noticable upon acceleration both from a stop and cruising down the highway, but the engine shrugs it off unless you hold the throttle constant in the "dead zone."

It seems like the engine is missing something, but I don't know what. I'd hate to get rid of it, but unless it gets its problem sorted out, I see no other option.
 
To help the timing issue I hooked up an OSAC valve backwards,

bypass this POS...

I was able then to bump the timing back down to 12 degress.


8-12 seems to be a good place for stock slants...

This has helped more than anything. The dead spot is now around 30 mph or about 1/3 throttle, no longer off idle. It stumbles, coughs, sputters, and surges all over the place if you hold the throttle constant, but refuses to die. Simply letting up, or pushing the pedal down just a hair instantly overcomes this dead spot. It is the oddest thing I have ever seen.

sounds like it is running lean... my dart does this when i cut its balls off for smog...
 
Defiantly not a lean condition, it has a Motorcraft off of a 390 with a 460's venturi cluster in it now and it is a bone stock slant. It smokes black when its under throttle.

As much as I would love to get rid of the OSAC valve it is the only thing that has really helped it and made it half way drivable.
 
Defiantly not a lean condition, it has a Motorcraft off of a 390 with a 460's venturi cluster in it now and it is a bone stock slant. It smokes black when its under throttle.

As much as I would love to get rid of the OSAC valve it is the only thing that has really helped it and made it half way drivable.

ok so then maybe its bogging...

ok so have you done the basics and adjusted the valves, and made sure the timing mark on the balancer is right? they like to spin and move the mark around
 
Timing is spot on.

Bogging, maybe. Except this problem has remained constant through all six carbs I've had on it. The smallest being the factory BBD and the largest is this Motorcraft. I can say that it isn't fuel/air related.

It has something to do with the ignition, that's how it appears to me, at least that would attempt to explain the OSAC valve.
 
Timing is spot on.

Bogging, maybe. Except this problem has remained constant through all six carbs I've had on it. The smallest being the factory BBD and the largest is this Motorcraft. I can say that it isn't fuel/air related.

It has something to do with the ignition, that's how it appears to me, at least that would attempt to explain the OSAC valve.

so you found TDC and then made sure the mark was at 0* on the timing tab?
 
Yes, during the rebuild. If it has slipped it isn't by much. The 22 degrees had signs of being too far advanced, like kicking back on the starter, but the engine ran better.
 
Have you put a tailpipe sniffer on it? If not, then you don't know for sure it's not runnin lean. A dead spot is a sure nuff symptom of a lean condition, usually caused by a vacuum leak. You come on here and ask for help and then start shooting down all the suggestions. It could have a 1050 Holley Dominator but have a vacuum leak that leads to a lean condition. Obviously, you don't know what the heck it IS because you ain't fixed it yet. Stop being hard headed and listen to some common sense idea and go check them out.
 
This may sound stupid but have you checked for good spark on all cylinders? Is it possible he is getting poor combustion? He mentioned black smoke doesn't that usually occur because of poor combustion?
 
Ok then, explain this. How can six different carburetors of varying cfm, manufacturer, and style, mounted differently using new gaskets, all pulling good vacuum produce the exact same dead spot that can only be helped by delaying the vacuum signal to the distributor? How can they all have the identical skewed ratios of air to fuel?

The Carters I had ran lean and the Holleys and Motorcrafts run rich, but they all had this constant problem.

I have been all over this engine with a can of starting fluid, checked every vacuum port, there is no vacuum leak.

This engine is NOT running lean with this set up. I don't have to stick a sniffer on an exhaust pipe to know how it is running. The plugs are black, a rich solid black, not white and the exhaust reeks of and spews out raw gasoline. The engine runs out just fine, and I can't get it to spark knock, and that's not for a lack of trying.

Sorry, to be "hard-headed" but to fix a problem you have to narrow down the factors, most of these steps I have already taken at least once. Granted I don't know what the problem is, but I do know what it isn't. I have been through all the easy "solutions" if something simple would have fixed it, something trivial, I wouldn't be here.

Thank you, jdeval. Yes the black smoke is a sign of poor combustion, but it is because the engine is getting more fuel than it can properly combust, this wasn't an issue with the other five carburetors.
 
Check the spark to make sure its a nice strong blue white to rule out a weak coil. Make sure ECU has a very good ground and all ignition wiring connections are clean and tight. Use a non magnetic feeler to ensure the reluctor gap is correct as well though I'm sure if any of this were not good then the problem wold be more of a range of RPM other that just a spot as you mentioned... just checking as I'd be at a loss too I think

Here's pulling at a string... an intake or an exhaust flow resonation at a certain RPM impeeding flow to or from one or more cylinders. ???? as I said pulling at a string
 
You need to figure out the timing first.

The first thing you need to do is chuck the OSAC and don't look back. Hooking it up backwards is not going to do anything but temporarily relieve your problem...while causing others. Your distributor line should be connected straight to your carb with nothing in between.

If you can't get your timing to go down to TDC to 10* BTDC, then you need to adjust the bracket on the underside of the distributor. Loosen the bolt and turn the bracket an inch or so and then reinstall the distributor. That should get your timing back in the 0-15* BTDC range.

If you still have the problem then at least you know you have your timing in order and one less thing to worry about.
 
Sorry, to be "hard-headed"

Diagnosing something is a step by step process. A process of elimination. I don't know how other people do it but I always begin with the simplest and cheapest things that go wrong, because that's uauslly what it ends up being.

You come on here asking for advice. You are given advice from people who may have different......and some possibly better diagnostic skills than yours. We have some really sharp people on here. I've been doing it thirty years.....but I got news. 805MoparKid is a KID...but I'l be damned if he's not REAL sharp at this stuff.

You can't come on here askin for help and then shoot down every idea that comes out. I'm sorry you're hard headed, too. Far as I'm concerned, you can fix it yourself.
 
Here's pulling at a string... an intake or an exhaust flow resonation at a certain RPM impeeding flow to or from one or more cylinders. ???? as I said pulling at a string - Quote Kernal Sanders

I think you're on to something here, I never thought of it and it makes perfect sense in this scenario. The problem does seem to be inherited. Thank you Kernal.
 
So out of all the advice you get, you latch on to an exhaust flow resonation theory? You gotta be kidding me lol. Have fun working backwards and figuring that out.
 
If you can't get your timing to go down to TDC to 10* BTDC, then you need to adjust the bracket on the underside of the distributor. Loosen the bolt and turn the bracket an inch or so and then reinstall the distributor. That should get your timing back in the 0-15* BTDC range.

also it could be a tooth off or the vacuum advance could be bleeding in if the canister isn't setup right...


You come on here asking for advice. You are given advice from people who may have different......and some possibly better diagnostic skills than yours. We have some really sharp people on here. I've been doing it thirty years.....but I got news. 805MoparKid is a KID...but I'l be damned if he's not REAL sharp at this stuff.

Thx SS...
 
I have been all over this engine with a can of starting fluid, checked every vacuum port, there is no vacuum leak.

good

This engine is NOT running lean with this set up. I don't have to stick a sniffer on an exhaust pipe to know how it is running. The plugs are black, a rich solid black, not white and the exhaust reeks of and spews out raw gasoline. The engine runs out just fine, and I can't get it to spark knock, and that's not for a lack of trying.

ive never gotten spark knock on a slant... with anywhere from 7-8:1 comp its pretty hard...

as for the fuel issue why not get the carb jetted correctly not matter if its a related issue or not? just because its not a fuel issue dosn't mean the fuel wont cause an issue...


also have you checked the vacuum advance diaphragm with a tester? could be causing a vac leak...
 
Quote: I think you're on to something here, I never thought of it and it makes perfect sense in this scenario. The problem does seem to be inherited. Thank you Kernal.

Holy crap : Exhaust Flow Resonance

I've been troubleshooting this Pig Iron for 40 yrs and have never once considered this as a possible problem, maybe in a gas turbine that incounters supersonic inlet flow rates. Never in a slant 6 though I guess I missed out.:crybaby: Guess I better get out the hammer and start checking for critical frequencies. :cheers: Scotty to Engineering
 
Quote: I think you're on to something here, I never thought of it and it makes perfect sense in this scenario. The problem does seem to be inherited. Thank you Kernal.

Holy crap : Exhaust Flow Resonance

I've been troubleshooting this Pig Iron for 40 yrs and have never once considered this as a possible problem, maybe in a gas turbine that incounters supersonic inlet flow rates. Never in a slant 6 though I guess I missed out.:crybaby: Guess I better get out the hammer and start checking for critical frequencies. :cheers: Scotty to Engineering

I guess we all need to go back to school. lol
 
You may want to swap in another distributor or hook up a vacuum pump to the advance pod and see if you get the proper advance at various vacuum rates. There could be a bad connection that gets better or worse depending on the pickup plate position. Can you duplicate the condition in neutral or do you need a load on the engine? If you can get it to act up while you have a timing light on it, you may be able to tell if it's ignition related or not.
 
LOL I only mentioned it as a far fetched idea AFTER mentioning things not mentioned by the OP as being checked like proper grounding of the EGR, checking the reluctor gap ignition wire connectors being clean and tight etc...
 
LOL I only mentioned it as a far fetched idea AFTER mentioning things not mentioned by the OP as being checked like proper grounding of the EGR, checking the reluctor gap ignition wire connectors being clean and tight etc...

Kernel you're just plain mean, I understand now, you threw that idea out there hopeing a certain someone would run with it. That's just dirty.[-X[-X:prayer: I bow in your presense.:prayer::prayer:

I better get off here or I'll catch it from the "boss". Carry on.:thumrigh:
 
OH! A not so far fetched idea...

Is the intake aluminum on that super six? I have heard that many of the aluminum castings are prone to leakage (in the actual casting) allowing a vacuum leak but NOT where you would normally check for leaks, like the carb base and the head mouting areas but along the runners themselves.
 
Hell with it, the slant's coming out and a good engine is going in, a Chevrolet engine. I'll stick with what I know best and what works.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. No wonder you MoPar guys got a bad reputation in the other groups.

Sorry to those who actually tried to help.

The slant will be sitting by the curb for local pickup. I'm outta here.
 
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