Small Block 410 Build

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Jax

Jax

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HI Guys,

I will restart with the build of my 410 SB. I have already purchased the major items for the engine, and are as following:
- Eagle High Performance Competition stroker kit.
- MRL Performance Aluminum Ported Heads full assembled.

My Goal is 500 Hp and to be build for a bracket car.

I will be ordering the minor parts to build the engine such as: oil pump, gaskets, starter etc.

Any recommendations to have in mind when ordering any of the remaining items? Maybe related to the oil system? Pump or any special mods?

The engine has already been blue printed and ready to be assembled.

Your input is highly appreciated.
 
Sounds exciting!
Choose the right cam/lifters, exhaust and Carb and 500hp should not be an issue..
Good luck and keep us informed.
 
The kit I have is the high performance kit, that includes the forged steel crank.

I have been reading a lot concerning the oil system modification. IS this a must?
What about the oil pump? Any specific oil pump that you recommend to purchase?

Thanks
 
Guitar Jones did a write up on the oil mod which is a good idea reguardless of the RPM's being spun but for sure it is needed above 6500. While some blocks/engines have survived higher RPM's without the mod, not all of them do.

A stock pump is all you will need. An increased oil capacity pan is a very good idea. Mildon makes a road race pan fwiw.
 
I've had issues with the Milodon 8qt. Fitment and stock welds leaking. Being based in California there no longer able to use solvents to test their wells, only water which isn't cutting the mustard. Roll the dice on a Milodon if you want, but never again for me.
 
Thank you for your input guys. I will look for the post by Guitar Jones.

I may post some pics of the project. This small baby will be installed in a Chrysler Conquest 8.50 IHRA certified Car. We hope to see some good times from this bad boy.
 
I have a Charles aluminum pan and swinging pick up for a dragster or chassis car if you're interested.
 
Jax said:
The kit I have is the high performance kit, that includes the forged steel crank.

I have been reading a lot concerning the oil system modification. IS this a must?
What about the oil pump? Any specific oil pump that you recommend to purchase?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I would do them, gets oil to the valve train faster, and keeps oil in the bottom end as well. I think its a great set of mods, you are spending a bunch of money, help this motor last longer and you will spend less later. If going solid roller on a cam I would bush the lifter bores as well, adds strength and more oil control as well. Good luck with your build.
 
Yes Sr. We will be using solid roller lifters... I will consider your suggestion
 
Read the GJ thread then go to www.moparchat.com and scroll down to & click on "circle track chat" then read Sanborns' oiling (& cooling) mods that are in a sticky (for good reason) at the top of the page (some overlaps). He's one of the countries' foremost oiling gurus and his cooling expertise ain't far behind. Put on some coffee & be prepared to take your time to peruse it all. When done you'll KNOW what you want & need to do
 
This is my suggestion, take it as you will. 1971, 72, 73, 360 (thick wall) block if posable, but not a must. I like to heat treat my blocks, but again you don’t have too. Call Ken or Matt Hensley at Hensley Racing about the “Purple Book” it will tell you everything you need to know about modifying the oil system (real simple), and (there is no cross over line under the intake). Block prep: deck the block (Balancer Grinder not a sander) Herb McCandless oiling system from Hensley Racing, line hone, 0-deck, and clean the webbing in the valley. Have the oil holes chaffered on the crank (should be with that kit), full grooved main bearings. Take the crank, pistons, rods, set of rod bearings, harmonic balancer, and flex plate and get the rotating assembly balanced. “Harmonics are the number one danger to an engine” no if, ands, but, about it. Use JE flat top Pistons with thin rings that overlap or grind fit, free floating pins. 7qt oil pan with high volume pump, Hughes Engines HUG 7382K MAIN STUD GIRDLE KIT “360” worth every dime. SFI harmonic balancer and flex plate. The heads you have need to flow above 260 on the intake and 180 exhaust (Week side of small block heads is the exhaust side) and (pushrod angle) but they will work fine. Use cupped push rods, roller rockers, with at least a .557 lift “solid lift or roller” cam with a 296 adv. Duration, (the bump stick is the brains of the engine). Now listen close, these cam companies have spent millions of dollars on R+D so don’t exaggerate, tell them what you have for an engine, the weight of the car, and what you want to do and they will tell you what you need, remember (NO B.S.) and you will be very happy. Use the Try-Metal-Gaskets, and clay the heads for piston clearance. No big deal, with the short block assembled, #1 cylinders down in the bore about 1 inch down and place the assembly clay on the high point of piston for intake and ext. and torque the head on, turn engine so piston goes past TDC pull the heads and measure thickness of clay, then remove the clay. Put heads back on and tighten in proper order and in 50# increments. Use the Victor intake with 800 thunder or 1050 dominator, Tunnel Ram with two 750, or good high-rise single-plane with 1050 dominator. WRITE EVERY THING DOWN IN A BOOK AND KEEP IT. Rest of the setup is up to the RPM you want to run in ¼ or 1/8th mile, tire size, gear, transmission, convertor. And use good supporting parts, Elc. Box, wires, ect. This is calculable just have to ask.
 
Purple book?
This is my suggestion, take it as you will. 1971, 72, 73, 360 (thick wall) block
Click to expand...
I have found this to be a load of B.S.

On the roller rockers, contact MRL for his lifters. Then you'll be a head of the game.
 
Thanks for the info guys...

I have been reading a lot of info regarding the billet caps.... Are they mandatory ? and until what extend? Are these HP numbers rear wheel HP numbers? or estimated HP numbers to the crank? I have read in an article that above 600HP billet caps and the girdle is necessary.

My setup is as following:

Eagle performance 410 stroker kit.
Procomp heads build by MRL Performance Ported and Polish
Hughes HTL 4852 AS Cam... .600" lift and 248 duration.
M1 Intake and a dominator carb still to be purchased.

What should I expect in terms of HP from this setup in HP on the dyno, and should I consider the Billet main caps? This engine may see some 100 shot of nitrous. Not necessary but optional.
 
Hello rumblefish360, first off the book was a good book, I read it in High School, and second what part do you find a load of B.S. I run two 416 cid 360-1 headed small blocks, both with Tunnel Rams with 2-1050’s, they have 2 bolt mains with studs and a girdle system on them, and the McCandless oiling system, and it all works great. I get about 250 miles out of my race motors, that is a lot of ¼ mile runs, and I have never grenaded one, ever. I make 726 and 730 hp on both of them, and I launch at 4200 rpm’s. I have done the research the 71, 72, 73 360 info extensively, ever since Herb McCandless made that statement to me one day over dinner. Let’s just say I worked for Chrysler for 25 years, and it is true, but you are welcome to check it if you would like. It is really quite simple, in the early days they didn’t have a designated casting for the 360 so they used a modified 340 casting, not a big deal, and they did that until early to mid 1973. One thing I have learned working here is never say never about the early days, they did some crazy stuff. A simple sonic test will tell you that it is true. Good luck JAX and I hope everything goes well for you.
As far as the info on hp, mine is flex plate. My rule of thumb is 70 to 75 hp loss for 727, 40 to 45 hp for 904, and about 10 hp for the rest of the drive line. They are a little high but close. A girdle will be fine, and the cam seems a little big, should call a cam company and ask. With nitrous it is the head gaskets you need to worry about. Try metal head gaskets and make sure the deck is flat, works best for me.
 
340BABY... Thank you for all the info provided... I surely appreciate it.

I close friend is familiar with Hensley Racing, they have build some engines for a couple of the local bracket mopar racers.

What HP do you think I can expect from my current set up ? Hp to the crank... More or less estimated....?
 
I would say you would be in the 525 to 575 range. Those heads are capable of a lot more. I would stay out of the 600 lift range on the cam, I would go with a solid lift cam. You will still have to do a regular valve adjustment but after a while you can do it pretty fast. You need to understand a few thing because the cam is so important 1) ¼ OR 1/8 mile, 2) Tire size you will be running, 3) weight of car, 4) Power band and RPM of the Engine, and desired trap speed and rpm you want. With what you are building I would think it will be in the 7000 max rpm range, so you should cross the traps at 6500 to 6700 rpm range, launch should be between 3800 to 4200 rpm with your power band in the 3600 to 6800 rpm range. Now these are guesses not knowing everything about the engine, but it will be close. This all depends on Port flow and Velocity, weight of rotating assembly, cam numbers - Ramp, lift, duration, center line, good luck.
 
340baby, just out of curiosity. Why stay out of the .600 lift range?
 
340BABY said:
I would say you would be in the 525 to 575 range. Those heads are capable of a lot more. I would stay out of the 600 lift range on the cam, I would go with a solid lift cam. You will still have to do a regular valve adjustment but after a while you can do it pretty fast. You need to understand a few thing because the cam is so important 1) ¼ OR 1/8 mile, 2) Tire size you will be running, 3) weight of car, 4) Power band and RPM of the Engine, and desired trap speed and rpm you want. With what you are building I would think it will be in the 7000 max rpm range, so you should cross the traps at 6500 to 6700 rpm range, launch should be between 3800 to 4200 rpm with your power band in the 3600 to 6800 rpm range. Now these are guesses not knowing everything about the engine, but it will be close. This all depends on Port flow and Velocity, weight of rotating assembly, cam numbers - Ramp, lift, duration, center line, good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks man.....

The 525 to 575 HP range is to the wheels??

We are planning to use a 904 with transbrake.
1/4 mile track
29.5 X 10.5 drag slicks
The Car is a plymouth conquest full body IHRA 8.50 certified, with a 4 link suspension. With the engine I think the car will weight approx 2900 lbs.
The rear end gear right now is a 4.10, but we can purchase the recommended ratio. The car is equipped with a chevy 10 bolt diff.
We want to keep the rpms below 7000, it is a bracket car.
 
340baby, the following is where I call B.S. on and only this one point.

"Early blocks are thick walled." And that is bull ****! Even you yourself said it can be checked with a simple sonic check. And this I have done and found early blocks to not be able to go beyond a .030 overbore and some later blocks able to go to .060 nice and safe.
 
Hello justinp61 you asked why I said to stay away for the .600 lift range. It is the application JAX said “My Goal is 500 Hp and to be built for a bracket car.” So I took him at his word, a bracket car means it will see some street time. The two builds are very different with a .600 plus lift the engine will require different parts that are not conducive to street use or longevity. Your power band would be too high, the Torque Converter would have to be too high to be streetable, the springs required for that type of lift will lack longevity, operation range and heat production will all work together to reduce engine life. Typically and engine with a .600 lift, fully ported heads and the overall build of the engine he is suggesting is a 200 to 300 mile engine if it is well built, and for a drag motor that is pretty good. Yes he can run it on the street, and it will work, but it will have spongy feel at low RPM, and the trans will run warm, engine will run warm. It just wouldn’t be a long lasting, enjoyable ride. I hope this answers your question, and thanks for asking.
The Cam card: I can’t find this cam “Hughes HTL 4852” but this is a similar Comp cam

Low RPM
3000
Peak HP
7000
Redline
7500
Performance Description
High torque oval track and drag profile.
Engine Application
Level 5 camshafts are designed for fully prepared, high compression all-out racing engines and chassis.
Recommended Modifications
Extensive cylinder head modification, bigger titanium valves, lightweight valve train, maximum flow carburetion or fuel injection, racing gas (alcohol or nitro), magneto or electronic ignition, performance rod and crank assembly and increased engine clearances are required for maximum benefit.
 
340BABY said:
Hello justinp61 you asked why I said to stay away for the .600 lift range. It is the application JAX said “My Goal is 500 Hp and to be built for a bracket car.” So I took him at his word, a bracket car means it will see some street time. The two builds are very different with a .600 plus lift the engine will require different parts that are not conducive to street use or longevity. Your power band would be too high, the Torque Converter would have to be too high to be streetable, the springs required for that type of lift will lack longevity, operation range and heat production will all work together to reduce engine life. Typically and engine with a .600 lift, fully ported heads and the overall build of the engine he is suggesting is a 200 to 300 mile engine if it is well built, and for a drag motor that is pretty good. Yes he can run it on the street, and it will work, but it will have spongy feel at low RPM, and the trans will run warm, engine will run warm. It just wouldn’t be a long lasting, enjoyable ride. I hope this answers your question, and thanks for asking.
The Cam card: I can’t find this cam “Hughes HTL 4852” but this is a similar Comp cam

Low RPM
3000
Peak HP
7000
Redline
7500
Performance Description
High torque oval track and drag profile.
Engine Application
Level 5 camshafts are designed for fully prepared, high compression all-out racing engines and chassis.
Recommended Modifications
Extensive cylinder head modification, bigger titanium valves, lightweight valve train, maximum flow carburetion or fuel injection, racing gas (alcohol or nitro), magneto or electronic ignition, performance rod and crank assembly and increased engine clearances are required for maximum benefit.
Click to expand...

340 Baby...., When I refer to bracket car, was that we are going to run different bracket classes, thus the engine will be used for plenty of runs. This car is not going to be driven often on the street. Maybe only from home to the track, that is about half mile drive. I am sorry about that.:D
 
My 408 was a pump 93 deal in a 69 Dart, 3260# including me. It ran 6.57 @ 108 in the 1/8 in race trim and 6.70 as driven. It was 10.9-1, ported Edelbrocks, deep port matched Victor intake, Bigs 950 HP, Hughes 1.6 rockers, Hughes 6064 flat solid, 260/264 @ .050, IIRC .628/.633 lift, 727, the converter at that time was a Edge Racing 9.5" that flashed 5000, Dana 60 with 4.10 gears and 325 ET Street radials.

I could drive it anywhere, no over heating and very little maintenance, I ran the valves every spring when the weather started warming up. The bottom end was far from soft and it pulled hard from everywhere. It liked being shifted at 6400, anything above 6600 or below 6300 would slow it down. I tried everything from 6000 to 7200.

There are many ways to skin a cat, pick your poison and go.
 
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